The discussion moves far beyond physical protection, delving into emotional safety — the kind of trust that allows someone to be fully vulnerable, seen, and accepted. Each guest brings a deeply personal perspective: Patty speaks about freedom of expression and emotional honesty, John reflects on being “a safe person” and the complexities of male vulnerability, Heather explores how self-knowledge and boundaries create safety, and Katerina opens a profound dialogue about energy, forgiveness, and the balance between sexual and emotional intimacy.
The result is a moving, intelligent, and deeply human conversation about the courage it takes to love openly — and the spiritual strength it requires to be truly safe with another person.
Alonzo Banx welcomes Patty, Heather, John, Katerina
Alonzo Banx (00:00)
Welcome back to the Polysocal Podcast. I am Alenzo Banks and tonight we have a couple of new voices in the choir and we have a very interesting topic. So…
John, Katerina, Patty, Heather, welcome. Good evening. By the way, we’re adults tonight. This is officially our Twenty First episode. So I think we actually become adults and we can now talk about the topics we’re talking about. And tonight we are talking about what does sexual safety mean to you? Not just feeling of protection, but feeling emotionally safe enough to be vulnerable.
Katerina (00:13)
Bye.
Patty (00:13)
Yeah, hi.
Jon (00:14)
Look.
Alonzo Banx (00:34)
And I’m thrilled because we have a new guest tonight who was instrumental for me at an event. And she probably doesn’t know that, but you’ll find out here in a couple of minutes. But let’s go around the table like we always do. And Patty, welcome.
Patty (00:49)
Hi, thank you. I’m Patti. ⁓ host a co-host with Alonzo on the podcast. I am married to John and dating Beeb and Heather and I are recently engaged. I have another newer relationship on the side and so yeah, we are
Katerina (00:50)
you
you
.
Patty (01:08)
very busy. I have
Katerina (01:09)
you
Patty (01:10)
a baby in my arms today. I’m watching my nephew. So if you hear a little cranky guy, you know what that is. So yeah, thanks for having me.
Alonzo Banx (01:19)
thrilled to have you back and the baby is very cute but not as cute and sweet as you and Heather have been all week now that you’re engaged Heather say hello
Heather Blake (01:31)
Hi, I’m Heather and I have a fiance. ⁓ I’m also married to Bebe and I’m dating John and yeah, life is great.
Katerina (01:36)
Okay.
Jon (01:36)
You
Alonzo Banx (01:46)
And tonight makes you the most appearances as a guest on
this show. you, you. Right, with Noah not being here tonight, you now take the number one spot. Mr. John, good evening.
Heather Blake (01:52)
I know, I really excited that Noah wasn’t here tonight for that one reason.
Patty (02:00)
I’m a
Heather Blake (02:01)
So…
Jon (02:03)
Hello, I am John. I am the husband of Patty and Heather is my wife’s fiance and my girlfriend and Abe would be my metamorph in this situation and that’s kind of me.
Alonzo Banx (02:19)
Welcome back, John. And for the first time tonight of the podcast, who I hope will be the first of many future visits, Katharina, please explain who you are and welcome to the show.
Jon (02:21)
Thank you.
Katerina (02:32)
Oh, thank you. It’s good to be here. About five years ago, I transitioned gender. And at the same time, just the very first person I met was someone who’s poly. And the first words they said were, you’re monogamous, you’re not compatible. It seems really odd to hear that, but a lot had changed since 1997. So for the past five and a half years, I’ve been
working in poly as deeply as I can. So it’s been a beautiful experience. It’s one that I found is like to do it and commit to it is to commit to a high degree of self growth and development through the lens of pain. It takes a lot of courage to do this kind of work I think. But it’s beautiful. Thank you.
Alonzo Banx (03:11)
About two and a half years ago, I was at a tantra event with my lady and they broke us all into groups and you ended up in the group with you and Sai and I. And you were so concerned and so caring about my feelings and that night that it really impacted me. And I’ve thought about you many times since that night because you were just so human.
and you were so caring and so compelling. I’m thrilled to have you on this show. So the question tonight kind of plays into that is what does sexual safety mean to you? Not just feeling protected, but feeling safe enough to emotionally be vulnerable.
Katerina (03:40)
Thank you.
Alonzo Banx (03:53)
What does that resonate with?
Anyone? Go ahead, Patty.
Katerina (03:55)
Thanks.
Patty (03:56)
For me, you know, I thought about this question and setting aside the physical aspects of safety. think emotionally safe to me is being able to freely express my sexuality with my partner, being able to tell them my desires, being able to trust that they are not gonna yuck my yum and that I can
just be myself. Tell them all the dirty thoughts I have in my head that I would never utter to anybody else. And that’s kind of what that means for me. Being emotionally able to express myself, express what I want to do and also feeling comfortable and safe emotionally to do so.
Alonzo Banx (04:40)
I agree. ⁓ and so does the baby.
Patty (04:40)
Okay. ⁓
Katerina (04:42)
and
Patty (04:43)
Yeah.
Alonzo Banx (04:44)
John, how do you think about that? How does that feel to you?
Jon (04:47)
⁓ it feels great. one of the things that I’ve been told a number of times is that I’m a very safe person and, and it never comes off as like, I’m not violent or anything like that. It does seem to come off as a emotionally safe person in that I think that I lead with love and respect when I interact with people. So, while I do appreciate
Katerina (05:06)
you
Jon (05:07)
having that, you sometimes I would love if I was just the bad boy sometimes, but it doesn’t seem to play out that way for me ever. So I’m happy with it and uncomfortable with it and stuff, whatever. It is hard for me to kind of understand exactly what I’m doing that might be that for people, but I think it really just comes from that some respect and I think maybe some predictability too. People seem to know.
if I ever get triggered or what would trigger me or anything
Katerina (05:31)
you
Jon (05:33)
like that. And I think I behave generally speaking as a stable human being.
Alonzo Banx (05:38)
You know, John, I’ve run up many times in these podcasts that I often have to channel my inner John. You are you are my role model for how to do things right. But I’m going to reverse that on you because I know and I think everyone on this call knows how you are externally. But the question is, what does it take for you to feel safe?
Jon (05:57)
Hmm.
think it probably takes a whole lot. know, honestly, there’s, I think, levels of it for me, perhaps, or that it’s on a spectrum of emotional safety.
I think when I am afforded the same kind of
Katerina (06:12)
.
Jon (06:14)
respect and if somebody is responding to me in an authentic and predictable way, it can be, it doesn’t have to all be the same. Like I’m not looking for the exact same recipe in a relationship or anything like that. But if I know, if I say something challenging to somebody, how they react to me and I can depend on that likely happening.
I think I start to develop a certain feeling of safety. But then as things get deeper, learning or being more vulnerable over time is a really slow burn for me. And so as I trickle more vulnerability into a relationship, I discover more of that same kind of predictability and safety and how that people react to me on different things.
Katerina (06:57)
Okay.
Jon (06:59)
It just, I think it just takes me a while to get there.
Alonzo Banx (07:01)
Yeah, hear that. I am notoriously really slow for being able to open up and get that level of trust. Heather? How does that resonate with you and your smiles tonight?
Heather Blake (07:12)
I’m going to agree with everything that’s been said so far. mean, for me, for me personally, safety starts with nobody else but me. My ability to know what I want and what I don’t want and what I like and what I don’t like and my own ability to use my know and be firm with it. And I, in those moments, give zero fucks about the other person. I, it is about me in that situation in this
Katerina (07:15)
You
you you
Heather Blake (07:41)
in an intimate
space, me being able to say no, not my jam. So the more I do it, the more confident I feel in the bedroom. So mostly in those intimate spaces, it comes down to me and me being able to have control over my own safety and having the confidence to do so.
Alonzo Banx (08:04)
we talking about sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy? And where do you draw that line in the middle?
Katerina (08:08)
Yeah.
Heather Blake (08:11)
I’m probably sexual safety too, mostly in that statement. Emotional safety, I’m closed off for a hot second. think Patty opened me up quite a bit really quickly. So, and I liked what John said, how people react to me helps me open up more. So if…
I’m being vulnerable and they’re receiving it in a very positive way and I’m feeling truly heard, then I’m more likely to be more open with that person.
Alonzo Banx (08:45)
Katharina, welcome, putting you on the spot now. What does…
Katerina (08:48)
That’s topic
I think about this stuff all the time. It’s like in the beginning, why do we have new relationship energy that ends? It should just get better. Makes no sense. know, like why? In the beginning, we have all this depth and intimacy, but we don’t really know each other. But for me, what I think is enough unresolved issues occur over time that are below the surface and with resentments.
a little bit of anger below surface, things that aren’t being said. You can’t really, for me, I feel like it takes away the intimacy, because it’s an energetic connection. We link semantically. Like when we make love to people, we swap photons. It’s like we swap the energy centers. Like, let me give you my heart, let me give you my sex, let me give you my safety, my vision, my voice. And so, and this is like…
If we maintain clarity and we’re clear in our… Like, if I could maintain myself clear and the other person could and we could maintain, like Rumi says, any time two people come together, a relationship or a child is conceived, if we could keep all this clear, I think it would grow and have more depth and beauty over time. But it’s interesting because I can almost feel like I have more intimacy and depth with a hookup that I just know I won’t get killed, raped, STDs. I can be pretty intimate.
both sexually and in terms of getting to know someone. But it’s when the other stuff comes in, in a relationship, it gets complicated. And it’s how do we get back to clear? With blame and hurt, each person creates their own story. It makes it really compelling. It’s like, how do you…
give up and sort of allow to die the ego of like the past or the righteousness and how we were wronged. And most of the time it’s like I find I was in the wrong but I couldn’t see it until I could forgive them. And then I realized like what I had done too. And so it’s like in retrospect that we find the resolutions in peace with these issues but we need them now, not after we broke up. It’s like that doesn’t help too much.
Alonzo Banx (10:29)
Which do you find harder to give sexual or emotional intimacy?
Katerina (10:35)
I’d say emotional, yeah. Yeah, it’s uh… And that’s where it gets tricky because like the sexual intimacy is kind of predicated in a way. Like I can just let go and… Like with somebody I barely know, as long as I know I’m safe, I’ve got a place where can let go and be multi-orgasmic and be very connected that way. But the trick is if I’m gonna connect my sexual eros to another person, then it’s like emotional intimacy added too.
the sexual intimacy. so, like, the really good sexual chemistry and sexual intimacy will have all of the emotional stuff too. And in that, it’s just, any time fear comes, like, fear and eros are mutually exclusive. They just can’t be in the same room together, nor can shame, you know? And so, it’s, what am I bringing to the table? What am I willing to come in with? Because if it’s not myself, and
Relationships are like a sacred mirror. If I’m not comfortable with bringing this in, if I’m not comfortable essentially with myself, as I give it to another, hearing they may not be comfortable with it either, it’s like, let me look at myself first, you know, and try and get clear. And what I find is the deeper the relationship, the harder it can be to have either of the two types of intimacy.
Alonzo Banx (11:46)
I can agree with that. You know, I’m, I’m, really think something John touched on a minute ago is there’s a difference between the love languages that we give and the ones that we want to receive. I know I’m very guilty of that. I have very different things between what I give and what I receive. Patty, what does it take for someone to give you the comfort that you need?
for an emotional intimacy.
Patty (12:10)
All my love languages are ⁓ words of affirmation and physical touch. They’re very close within like a point of each other. So I know that if you tell me how you feel, I receive that and feel loved. If you physically touch me, snuggle me, have sex with me, that…
it speaks to my love language. I tend to give that back too. I struggle with providing my partners with other languages because that is what comes natural for me. I know that that’s been a struggle with me. One of my partners, his, their, well all of my partners, their love languages are acts of service.
except for Heather. And ⁓ so if I’m not told how I felt all the time, and you’re not physically near me all the time, I don’t know. Like I assume the worst. And so that has been a growing experience for me in my poly relationships to learn that just because something isn’t said doesn’t mean it’s not there. So.
I’ve grown quite a bit in the last year and a half and learned like, okay, just because somebody doesn’t say something doesn’t mean they’re gonna leave. Doesn’t mean they’re gonna abandon me. Doesn’t mean they’re not emotionally safe. Doesn’t mean that the love and the desire isn’t there. It’s just not expressed rarely the way that I normally receive it.
Alonzo Banx (13:32)
I for all of us, it’s really hard. We have the love languages that we give. I know that I am incredibly big on touch. When I’m with someone, I am physically, like, I always have a hand. I am, I’m pathetically connected to that touch is one of the ways I give love. And when you’re with a partner that that doesn’t resonate with,
That can be a problem, and I think it’s kind of Darwinian for me, is I end up only being with partners that are receptive of the fact that I am ridiculously connected through touch. Go ahead, Patty.
Patty (14:01)
You know, it has been a lot of a learning experience for me because when I’m with Heather and B, I’m literally almost always on top of them. I’m always on top of them. I’m always in their space. Same with the other relationship I have with John. I have to be mindful because if I’m on top of him and I’m in his face, he’s like, whoa, whoa, like you’re in my space. Like I can’t even look at you. You’re so close to my face. And so that’s been a learning.
thing for me to be able to get what I need and give what I want without making him uncomfortable by being like in his skin at all times.
Alonzo Banx (14:37)
Okay, John, gotta have a reply to that.
Jon (14:40)
Yeah. When our relationship started, Patty and I, when we first got together, she was constantly on my lap, just sitting on my lap, you wanting to talk to me, wanting to like connect with me that way and stuff, whatever. And it was a different way for me to try to communicate in that love language. At the time, this was 30 years ago. So the book about love languages was…
Katerina (14:53)
So,
Jon (15:05)
not available at the time. we wouldn’t have been able to define it that way back then. But at the time, was was kind of like a little bit of a shock to my system of somebody behaving like that. Because my first loving relationship was really
definitely down that acts of service road. And I think that that’s kind of where I define things a little bit for myself, or at least that
That’s kind of what I got sort of maybe trained in loving, is that with that language. So that always kind of stuck with me. So trying to absorb Patty’s version of love was a challenge for me and it took a while for me to get there. And then, but at the same time, I think some of my resistance kind of made her kind of back off from the physical as much as it was at the time. And, and she’s trying to find ways to communicate it on my languages and stuff too.
For sure, it was real sloppy without that book to kind of give us some guidance and stuff. But when we took the test and we realized that we were so different, was very eye opening, I think, at the time. So what’s become fascinating is to watch her kind of revert back to her original ways with Heather and Beeb and just climb all over them. Like, wow, look at her go. She’s just like ready to like climb inside of their faces and stuff. She’s very aggressive physically.
Not a safe person in terms of safety. Sexual safety.
Patty (16:20)
Hot!
Alonzo Banx (16:22)
I
And Heather, I’m going to give you a bit here in a second to reply to that. But yeah, Gary Chaplin gave us the five love languages in 1992. And I got to tell you that my two top love languages aren’t in that five. So I question whether there are really only five. I think there are many more, but I think it’s a great framework. But Heather, I got to hear your reply to this conversation.
Katerina (16:26)
Okay.
Heather Blake (16:46)
⁓ usually I don’t receive love through physical touch. I feel most loved when giving a gift or receiving a gift. I love gifts. Like you thought of me and you got me this and it could be something really small and significant. It doesn’t have to be some lavish thing. and Patty was just at my house all week last week for the most part. And she gave me little gifts throughout the whole weekend. She didn’t even know it.
Katerina (17:04)
So, you.
Heather Blake (17:13)
So like one of the things that I like about my house is it to be constantly organized in some aspect. So I just, have this huge couch that’s enormous. Like eight people can lay on it. I got it for cuddles. but I love to see it organized and pretty all the time. And I
Katerina (17:15)
Okay.
Heather Blake (17:30)
would leave the room and you know, Patty would come in, she would fold any blankets, fluff any pillows and make it look all pretty. And I was like, ⁓
I love that. Thank you. And speaking in regards to Patty’s physical touch, I love it. I love when she comes and she lets me know what she needs and what she wants. And she’s like, I need you to just hold me for a second. I need this because I like knowing what she needs and I like giving it to her. And whenever she’s around, she makes me feel like her, her person and not just
girlfriend, you know? That it’s something deeper.
Alonzo Banx (18:11)
Sounds like acts of love are incredibly connected to giving you the emotional security. Katerina, what do you think of that?
Katerina (18:19)
I really like touch. But I also feel like I maybe want too much touch to a point that it can be like I think as we give like I think I give what I need. And so I feel like deep down I’ve always felt validated with touch. Recently I’ve been entered into a relationship with a man who like isn’t necessarily so much into touch. But
gave me some really interesting gifts, like built me a Damascus steel knife and then made a sheath for it. I thought like, that’s a lot of time and commitment and dedication. It’s beautiful. And so seeing it, it’s hit in a totally different way. In a way I have to say like I kind of fell in love. It’s like, what could I do? And I witnessed too how like sometimes I’ll be getting frustrated that I’m not getting the touch, but it’s…
What I found I need is just like there’s a second in time where everything slows down. Like if I’m laying on a shoulder or something, it’s like a nervous system’s touch and there’s like a oneness and it’s like a grounding. I just feel it like this magnetic pull. it’s like that, right? That’s really what I need is just to feel like a connection. And in that way, in a way it’s like not being alone in this universe.
Otherwise, we don’t really know how we’re not alone, is through connections like that.
Alonzo Banx (19:31)
I think you bring up a really good question. What do you do when you don’t feel that security? What’s your internal mechanism if you’re in an environment where you don’t feel that comfort that allows you to be vulnerable? John, what do you do?
Jon (19:48)
You said what I don’t do?
Alonzo Banx (19:50)
What do you do if you don’t have that comfort level? As Katerina was just saying, when she doesn’t get that touch, she asks, she looks for it. John, what do you do when you’re not feeling that?
Jon (20:02)
⁓ usually revert to my inner self sort of, guess, or whatever. I fold in and I self-soothe, I guess, and I try to make sure that I’m protecting myself on the inside, I guess. yeah, I’ll get a little quiet, get a little, ⁓ put up my, put up my walls and stuff or whatever. Still put on a nice happy smile, but I’m always friendly, but,
Katerina (20:17)
If.
Jon (20:25)
Yeah, I think I just kind of put the walls around myself to make sure I’m safe inside.
Alonzo Banx (20:30)
Patty, I gotta put this on you, you’ve been with him for 30 years. Is that what he does?
Patty (20:34)
Mm-hmm.
Yes. And when the walls are up, it’s real hard for Patty to get through because Patty likes to provide physical touch. like to… So it can be tricky when somebody needs more dialogue, when they need more communication that way. Or thoughtfulness, like ⁓ acts of service, but more in a thoughtful way, a more considerate way.
Jon (20:40)
you
Patty (20:57)
to slowly break down those walls.
Alonzo Banx (21:00)
Well, clearly the acts of service work with Heather, who loved the readjusting of the couch pillows. So, you know, it’s about finding someone that your actions truly resonate with. I know this is an obvious response for some of us on this call, but how important is it for you to get that sense of vulnerability?
Jon (21:07)
You
Alonzo Banx (21:22)
And that’s a key word that we use tonight, to be vulnerable when you feel secure. Heather?
Heather Blake (21:27)
You’re asking how important is it?
Katerina (21:28)
I’m going turn it
back over to Okay.
Alonzo Banx (21:29)
Yeah, is it important to you? Is that
Heather Blake (21:31)
⁓
Alonzo Banx (21:32)
a thing?
Heather Blake (21:33)
You know what? I didn’t think it was a thing until John came along. I’ve never been vulnerable with another man besides Beb in my entire life. And Beb is my second marriage. Just gonna say that. It’s really difficult for me to be vulnerable with people. I don’t cry. It’ll be very rare to see me vulnerable. I self-soothe. I will…
fix my shit before coming to you. And there was this moment where I didn’t know I was feeling vulnerable until John, we just had this like really long embrace. Like Katerina was saying, you know, when you get really close to someone and you kind of think up and that’s what happened. His calmness came into me and my guard came down and I just started to cry in his arms and
That made it so John and I developed a deeper, more emotional relationship, which I didn’t think I could achieve.
Katerina (22:28)
Thank
Alonzo Banx (22:28)
vulnerability
important.
Heather Blake (22:30)
extremely. Especially when you’re talking about a polyamorous relationship or any or even a deeper friendship to have that vulnerability with somebody.
Alonzo Banx (22:41)
What does that word mean to you?
Heather Blake (22:44)
To be vulnerable is to be
Katerina (22:45)
.
Jon (22:46)
is
Heather Blake (22:46)
seen and heard without judgment.
Jon (22:47)
perfect without judgment.
Alonzo Banx (22:50)
I like that. Someone’s got an echo going. Katarina, what does it mean to you? Is it important? And what does vulnerability mean to you?
Katerina (22:57)
Well, to me that would be everything in a way. It’s like what I don’t know what the point would be otherwise in that sense. If I can’t be vulnerable. At the same time I have to be willing to me it’s like if I’m gonna be vulnerable I have to be willing to walk away. I have to be willing to give up.
I have be willing to give it up in order to be vulnerable because I can’t be assured that my vulnerability won’t end in termination or the end of the relationship. That was my, like even in coming out in a new life, am I going to be vulnerable? Am I going to be authentic or am I willing to risk being cast out? And so I think anytime we show our authentic selves and we’re vulnerable, the fear is that we’re running the risk of rejection. Quite often we may be.
But if we don’t, we’re ejecting ourselves ahead of time in so doing. it’s sort of like a mirror. it’s everything because if I can’t be vulnerable with you, then it means I can’t be vulnerable with myself, you know?
That’s kind of where the magic is.
Alonzo Banx (23:47)
think that’s a brilliant statement. John, what about you? You tend to be the supportive one.
Jon (23:52)
You
Alonzo Banx (23:53)
What does being vulnerable mean to you?
Jon (23:56)
I guess it’s just for me it means putting myself at risk. I guess that’s sort of the definition of vulnerability in a way, yeah, for me it’s just a willingness to put myself in a place where I know that I could get hurt and exposing myself in the interest of
being more transparent as a human being, think, or something like that. So not a place I enjoy being exactly, but once you get there, it’s pretty cool. Like a really steep hike, I guess, or something.
Katerina (24:27)
Yeah.
Alonzo Banx (24:31)
Patty, I’ll get to you in just a second. John, can you be in a truly fulfilling relationship without the ability to be vulnerable?
Jon (24:39)
I’m going to say yes. So that might not be popular in the room, it’s, I don’t think it’s necessarily a requirement. I love being somebody that people can rely on and depend on and stuff like that. That’s my happy place. It’s what makes me feel like I’m valuable in a relationship and stuff. ⁓
Alonzo Banx (24:41)
Okay, explain that one to me. No, I love that. Explain it to me.
Katerina (24:46)
I’m hopeful, I’m hoping.
Jon (25:02)
I’m more about what I have to offer than I am what I’m sort of taking. I’m going to say taking away because for me that open vulnerability is a sort of a, it almost feels like a selfish thing for me to do, I guess, or I feel like I’m wanting people to deal with me at a different level or something like that. So I don’t know, it feels a little bit on that selfish side. I don’t feel like I need to do that.
for me to be in a healthy, happy relationship. But yeah, I might be unique in that way.
Alonzo Banx (25:33)
Oh, well, as the power dom daddy dom in the room, I kind of tend to agree with you on that statement, by the way. Patty, what’s your thought?
Patty (25:40)
I have a couple thoughts on that. I do differ from John on that because I think the more your partner is vulnerable, the more you get to know them, the more you can fulfill what they’re needing, fill their cups, as the four of us like to say. I typically connect.
emotionally more with women than I do men. To an extent, I can develop up to a certain level with men and then it stops for a while with me. I recently had a moment with Beeb that kind of changed how I viewed our relationship. feel like…
in relationships I have to dress cute, have to wear the pretty panties, I have to like all the things for our time together and I had I have this fear of being left, relationship ending if I’m not meeting certain things and I struggle with letting my guard down completely when I’m not in a great place and recently I’ve had some family
that’s really important to me that is very ill towards the end of their life and I had a day where I was completely depleted. I just had given everything I had to helping my family and it was just I was a little emotionally distraught. Bebe came over and I had wanted to make him a pie and I wanted to do all the get dressed cute and I just couldn’t and
the thought of rescheduling with him was there, but the desire to be with him was stronger. And so I just showed up as is. And we had a moment where I just out of the blue started sobbing. I was naked after and just started sobbing in his arms. And he was…
there for me and I never do that with men other than John. And then I wore a t-shirt and full booty panties and we cuddled in bed and it was like ⁓ my god I can be myself and he will still love me. I can be vulnerable, I can be sad and all of the things and if I allow him to truly know me he’ll stay. Didn’t really occur to me.
I struggle with that. And so that was a pivotal moment for me. It gave me a sense of security when he’s not telling me all the things he thinks all the time. It was like that moment changed our relationship because it gave me a sense of security. Like, my gosh, I can just relax. I can be present. I can enjoy him and be completely myself, be completely vulnerable. And that is OK.
with him and that’s who he fell in love with. I just need to show that more.
Alonzo Banx (28:17)
That’s awesome. Clearly a state of emotional vulnerability. John, I see you had your hand up, but Heather, you were there first. You had something you wanted to say?
Heather Blake (28:24)
You know, I’m really curious what John has to say. I’ll go after John.
Katerina (28:26)
So.
Alonzo Banx (28:29)
John, please pick it up.
Jon (28:31)
So that story that Patti just told feels still like that this was Patti’s vulnerability versus Beeb’s vulnerability.
And I think that, at least for me, it seems like from that story that her feeling like she’s vulnerable is important for her for that connection, where I think Beeb in that moment needed to be
there for her. And I think it’s very good to be transparent as a person who is not so vulnerable, but vulnerability, I think, was not present in Beeb in that situation necessarily. I mean, I’m speaking for him, which is terrible, but I still question whether it’s
so necessary, I guess, from at least from my perspective. And just one other piece on top of that, I feel like male vulnerability is a very dicey thing to get involved in. So like, there’s a need, I think, sometimes for some women, not all women, to have a strong, just solid man. And if a man becomes vulnerable,
Katerina (29:22)
You
We have a balance.
Alonzo Banx (29:29)
It absolutely.
Jon (29:42)
sometimes, and I don’t know what it is that makes it go from just openness and emotional availability to sliding into whiny and obnoxious. And I feel like that line can be really thin. So I think that’s a risky game to play as a male sometimes, but I’m ready to take my beating now.
Alonzo Banx (30:04)
No, no, no, no beating it out. Katarina,
Patty, I see you both have something to say, but John, I want to add something to that. One of my strongest love languages is strength. I mean, that’s one of the ways that I show love more than any other is by being that source of strength. So no, I think you’re dead on. Katarina, see you had your hand up. Patty, you were next though.
Patty (30:24)
I just wanted to add that maybe Beep may not have been vulnerable in that moment. However, he’s been vulnerable with me in other times where, you there was a time where he hurt my feelings and I went to go talk to him and I could see on his face, he started to tear up, he started to cry, he let down his card and we had emotional connection there. I see that pop through. It does…
It makes me love him more when he’s vulnerable that way. I know there’s been times where John has been very vulnerable with me that has showed his emotions and he’s cried and I have felt a deeper sense of love for him. I do think male vulnerability is dicey in what society views as ⁓ okay and ⁓ all of that, but I also view vulnerability as a strength.
Katerina (31:06)
you you
Patty (31:11)
of you crying as a strength, not a weakness. Showing your emotions to someone is a sense of strength in that I am giving this to you, this is how I’m feeling and I’m okay with that is a strong, it’s a strength to
me, not a weakness. So John and I differ on that and he is vulnerable at times and he does let his guard down at times. But he is also typically the one that is
always consistently strong and always the person that is level-headed, the person that’s calm and all of that. So yeah, I like vulnerability. I view it as a strength in men.
Alonzo Banx (31:52)
Heather, I’m going to give you the last word tonight. So I’m going to hold off for a bit. But Katerina, I’d love to hear your thoughts. I think you have a very unique perspective now on this. Yeah, please.
Katerina (32:01)
It’s interesting,
vulnerability to exist with another, it takes a John. It takes a ground rod. It takes someone to listen. It’s actually, it’s not as easy as it looks to be able to be someone who can, people can feel
okay being vulnerable with, it’s like almost like a Dom session in a way. Like the energy reminds me of a Dom where it’s like for John to be able to clear himself out, be present, actually listen, and be loving non-judgment, it’s a deeply spiritual act that actually allows for vulnerability to occur. It’s like they both need to exist and so they’re both vulnerable in that sense. And then it’s just how often do we trade back and forth because
It’s rare, I think, that both people would be vulnerable at the same time. Usually it’s an exchange back and forth. And men typically get the receiving end, and I don’t know that they’ve gotten enough opportunity to be on the other end and feel safe with that too. So it’s something that’s just an imbalance between the genders, I think. But I view it as deeply vulnerable to be able to sit and listen to that stuff and not make a bad face and be non-judgmental and loving. It’s pretty sacred and pretty vulnerable.
Alonzo Banx (33:05)
I like that. Okay, last words, John, what are your thoughts for tonight?
Jon (33:09)
Me? I thought we were going with Heather on that one. ⁓ okay, okay, okay.
Alonzo Banx (33:09)
Yeah, yeah. no, no, she gets the final words tonight. She gets, she gets the last,
I would give you the last, your last words for tonight.
Jon (33:18)
My last words for tonight. I would love for things to be easier for both genders to be vulnerable. I think a lot of men are not that safe. Unfortunately, I hear so many stories of men not behaving correctly and stuff and it’s heartbreaking that this particular gender is problematic and at the same time, it’s also sometimes just not.
safe for men to be too vulnerable. it would be great if some of that could balance out a little bit, I think. It would probably be healthier.
Alonzo Banx (33:48)
here here. Patty, your last thoughts for tonight.
Patty (33:51)
I agree with John on that. think we subtly raise men up to ⁓ not be emotionally vulnerable, know, except for, you know, not to express emotions except for anger. It’s more acceptable for a man to express anger than it is to express hurt and cry. I think that, I think we could do better as society to allow men to raise
express themselves because I’ve heard it from many many women that they want their partner to express themselves yet we don’t condition them to do so.
Alonzo Banx (34:27)
very well said. Katerina, your thoughts?
Katerina (34:29)
I agree, it’s like men get kind of emotionally cut off the moment they hit puberty and I don’t think it’s, if it never feels safe, I never felt safe as a guy to expose myself, reveal my emotions. I almost just didn’t have the language and I also felt that there wasn’t a space, I didn’t have a listener. I didn’t really have a listener that would hold me. Quite often I’d feel judged.
Yeah, it takes that really special listener, like someone like John, who can sit there and hold it without having to comment and fix it and all that. Those are hard to find. For everybody.
Alonzo Banx (34:56)
Thank you. Okay, Heather, wrap it up for me tonight. What were the lessons learned? did we discover tonight?
Heather Blake (35:01)
Just correct me if I’m wrong, John. You said earlier that you can have a deep relationship without vulnerability, correct?
Jon (35:10)
for me.
Heather Blake (35:11)
Yeah, I think that is so wrong on so many levels. think that to have a true deeper connection with somebody, you need to know their struggles, what they’re going through, what they’re feeling, how they hurt and how you can show up for that person.
Jon (35:17)
I imagine so.
Patty (35:21)
love this.
Heather Blake (35:37)
Because if you were never open, were never exposed yourself, then how can your partner truly show up for you if you don’t allow that to happen? I just don’t think a deeper connection can be formed unless you’re open and vulnerable and allow somebody else to show up for you and be there for you. it’s been, John is on point when he says that he’s very…
reserved with his emotions and he doesn’t let people know when he’s going through stuff and he’s struggling. But thank God I have a patty. She’ll tell me like, he’s having a rough day or he’s going through it or whatever. And so, cause I’m not always with John present physically. So I have to rely on telecommunications to know how he’s feeling.
He could tell me he’s fine and then be totally not fine. So, I think John’s vulnerability and him being open has allowed me to be a better partner to him and to know him better. And I don’t think it would have been possible for John and I to develop a deeper relationship if he had never shown that side to me. John?
Alonzo Banx (36:43)
Well,
I was going to end this here, but John, you raised your hand. I got to give you the ability to reply.
Jon (36:49)
I would love to clarify one thing. So I am an open book, informationally speaking. Like, if you were to ask me, know, are you struggling with something today or something like that, right? I think I would let you know. I would let you know the facts about stuff, but I wouldn’t be necessarily, I know, no, she shakes her head. I don’t…
⁓ But I don’t know how important it is for me to be emotionally vulnerable in expressing that, know, like being upset and stuff or whatever and just sobbing because I’m struggling with something or whatever. I don’t know that that’s necessary for you to know how to show up for me. I think if you know and I’m communicating in a level way that something’s going on, like I’ve told you that I’ve had some issues with some family stuff or whatever.
And you can show up, you you communicate with me in the way that I need. I feel like that’s available, but ⁓ for me to actually be so emotionally sort of with some loss of control of my own emotions or something like that, that type of vulnerability, think I shy away from it and I don’t know that it’s necessary. Yes, I think where I’m at.
Alonzo Banx (37:53)
Heather, going to give you one last word because you wanted to reply to that. Go ahead.
Heather Blake (37:56)
okay. Yeah. All right. The, that extent is not necessary for a relationship. was I saying? you have told me you’re okay and fine, but you have told Patty on the same day, something different in the beginning of our relationship. If I asked you how you were doing, you would say good or fine. And Patty would be like, nah, he’s having a tough day.
So cool.
Alonzo Banx (38:18)
You
three, you, you, you, you guys clearly have a very, very solid relationship, but.
Patty (38:19)
Hey, don’t get me in trouble!
Heather Blake (38:21)
You
Jon (38:21)
Thank
Heather Blake (38:25)
So, but now,
Jon (38:27)
You
Patty (38:28)
Yeah.
Heather Blake (38:28)
now, yes, if I ask you how you’re doing, I honestly feel you would give me a straightforward answer. But then when the relationship was new, no, you were reserved.
Alonzo Banx (38:40)
Well, I think you’re showing my point here, which is the way to feel comfortable enough to be vulnerable is to allow yourself to be vulnerable. That we get back what we give to others. John, Katerina, Patty, Heather, another amazing night tonight. Thank you guys so much. This is the PolysoCal Podcast. I am Alonzo Banks and I am so thrilled to have you all here.
I hope to have you all here again next week. Thank you.