In this episode of the PolySoCal Podcast, Alonzo Banx is joined by Blake, Michael, Noah, Heather, Cupcake, Patty, Beeb, and Jon for a crowded, connected, and very real conversation about metamours, paramours, kitchen-table poly, autonomy, safety, trust, and control. The episode begins with the basic definitions: a paramour is your own romantic or sexual partner, while a metamour is your partner’s other partner. But the conversation quickly moves past vocabulary and into the lived reality of poly relationships. The group explores what it means to know, trust, like, avoid, protect, or build friendship with the people connected to the people you love. From John and Beeb’s close metamour friendship, to Cupcake’s past experiences being hidden, to Blake’s story of turning insecurity into family, this episode asks a harder question: do we need connection with our metamours, or do we need enough trust to let our partners choose for themselves?
Alonzo Banx, Blake, Michael, Noah, Heather, Cupcake, Patty, Beeb, Jon
PolySoCal 52 — The Other Side of the Table
[00:00:00]
Alonzo banx: Welcome back to Poly SoCal. I am Alonzo Banks. We got such a full house tonight, and we’re gonna be talking about merremors and paramours and what that all means. Hi, everybody
Heather: Hi!
Michael: Hello. Hello
Blake: Hello?
Alonzo banx: got a lot of people
So I’m gonna go around real quick and give everyone the chance to say hi. Blake
Blake: Howdy, howdy. First time on in a little while. Um, so I’m a partner with Lana. We’ve been together four years and, uh, started out calling ourselves monogam-ish, and, uh, we’re kinda moving into more of a polyamorous, uh, kind of a approach, uh, recently
Alonzo banx: Oh, welcome back. Good to have you. Good to see your tech working again
Blake: Yay!
Alonzo banx: Michael, it was you
Michael: Hello, I’m Michael. Um, think this is the fourth time. Um, and, uh, I live with a primary partner and have– we both have some multiple [00:01:00] relationships, and I have a special affinity for relationships of three
Alonzo banx: Uh, it’s good to have you back tonight, sir. You’re getting to be a regular here. You’ve been on quite a bit lately. We’re thrilled to have you. Mr. Noah, welcome on
Noah: I’m Noah, and I am in a relationship with my new wife as of today, Cookie.
Alonzo banx: Yay.
Noah: uh,
Blake: Mm-hmm.
Noah: not on the podcast tonight, but I, uh, am also in a relationship with, uh, Cupcake, who is on the podcast tonight. Um, yeah. Yeah, we have lots to talk about for this topic
Alonzo banx: Okay, so I, I have to point out the obvious fact. You just got married today, you’re here on the podcast tonight. That is some dedication
Noah: That’s right. I’m s- fully dedicated and I have the full support of my wife
Alonzo banx: Oh, I, wow, that sounds so funny. Congratulations on that, of your wife Heather, welcome
Heather: um, uh, married to the Beeb, [00:02:00] um, dating John, and engaged to Patty, and I have a girlfriend outside of our QE, and I have a metamour
Alonzo banx: Awesome. We got, we got a whole bunch of your pol- of your, uh, polycule on tonight.
Heather: The whole kiwi is here
Alonzo banx: The whole cule is here, but I’m gonna jump out first. I’m gonna go with Cupcake
Cupcake: I thought we were here to talk about Paramore the band. I am in the wrong place. Not sure. Um, just kidding. I’m Cupcake. Um, as Noah n- mentioned, I am in a relationship with, uh, Noah and Cookie, and I also am married and have a metamour
Alonzo banx: Yeah. Welcome, Patty
Patty: I am Patty. I am married to John, I’m engaged to Heather, and I’m newly engaged to Beep, and I have a partner as well
Alonzo banx: Hang on, hang on, hang on. You gotta expand on that ’cause I just heard about this the other day. Newly engaged to Beeb
Patty: Yes. Yes
Alonzo banx: Did he do it right? Beep, beep. You [00:03:00] romantic devil, say hello
Beeb: Hello, everyone. It’s been a while since I’ve been. Um, I am married to Heather, newly engaged to Patty, and John is my metamour, and I am not labeling it yet, but seeing someone outside of the QE as well
Alonzo banx: Good God, you guys with all your connections. John,
Jon: Hello. I’m a single guy. Just kidding. I, uh, married to Patty, I am dating Heather, and Bebe is my metamour, and I have yet other metamours as well. So I’m coming here with a whole stack of them
Alonzo banx: And I’m glad we have so many people connected here tonight because it really answers the, the questions, well, the questions that are about to be asked. Metamours and paramours, um, titles that I’ve heard used lately way more than I heard used historically. Um, anyone wanna give me a definition for what those mean? Noah?
Noah: [00:04:00] Yeah, I mean, with, with stripping out all nuance, I’m gonna give a very crude, uh, detailed example, and then we can decide on whether or not I’m accurate. But I see it as this: a paramour is your own romantic or sexual partner. A metamour is your partner’s other partner
Alonzo banx: Do we agree with that everyone? John, you’re smiling away. You’re, you’re
Jon: I like the lead up to that, uh, very, uh, very succinct answer. So sounds good to me
Alonzo banx: Is it right? Is that what they mean
Jon: I, I believe,
Blake: quest–
Jon: mm-hmm
Alonzo banx: Go ahead,
Blake: I have a question about that is, uh, can your, if you’re also involved with your metamour, are they no longer a metamour? They’re just an-another paramour
Noah: If you become involved with your metamour then I would say they’re your paramour
Blake: Thank you.
Alonzo banx: Yeah, I’m, I’m watching both Patti and, and Heather nodding away as, as Blake was saying that. Okay. So w- which one should we talk about first? Paramours or, [00:05:00] or metamours? The question tonight is how do you keep that relationship How do you, how do you make it work? And there’s a bunch of you that are those relationships Who’s got some? Go ahead, Noah
Noah: I, I always feel like, at least in my limited experience, that the, the paramour relationship is the easy one to, to manage in the sense that it’s a romantic relationship that most people are experienced in. I feel like the metamour relationship is one that could potentially have more complications the sense that, um, you’re not involved with them necessarily romantically.
However, you are involved with their partner romantically, which can have jealousy issues or time allocation issues, et cetera, the things that we deal with in poly all the time. Um, and I think, um, trying to, to navigate that relationship can be, uh, [00:06:00] complicated, unless you’re able to communicate effectively
Alonzo banx: John
Jon: Um, I wanted to comment on the, uh, what might be more complicated, but, uh, I, I’ve noticed that people when on the outside looking in are always looking at the paramour side of things. Like, a lot of the comments I’ll get are like, you know, “How do you manage multiple people at the same time?” and stuff, whatever.
“How do you… You know, I, I couldn’t– You know, I find it complicated enough with one person. I don’t know how you would manage multiple people to, to figure out how to, how to make happy,” and stuff like that. I, I feel like the, uh, there is a real trick to, uh, making it work with people that you are directly involved with, for sure.
But I, I do think that the metamour side of things is something that maybe gets, uh, overlooked too much. And, uh, and I noticed that in my own experience really, that, uh, that I don’t think enough about it. I don’t spend more time, uh, connecting, and I, and [00:07:00] I– missing out on opportunity there to, to build stronger bonds with my metamours, including Beeb
Alonzo banx: Heather, you had something you wanted to add?
Heather: A question for John and Beeb, since we have two Metas on the show tonight. How do you guys make it work?
Jon: Little kisses.
Beeb: S- so, um, we actually just had this conversation yesterday, John and I, where him and I get along really well. Um, do we always have time to hang out like we maybe would like to? No. But we also kind of agree that’s always, like, uh, something we need on the regular. Uh, we do like to, you know, have our guy getaways, go to the movies or, or go play some VR or whatever, whatever it is, or just going out, have a steak dinner just the two of us. Uh, we, we try to do that. Um, I would say I’d like to do it at least once a month. Does it always [00:08:00] happen? No. We both are very busy, um, with just day-to-day and then with all our other relationships as well. So we try to make it work the best we can
Jon: You know, one of the things that
Alonzo banx: Uh,
Jon: Oh, okay
Alonzo banx: actually no, Patty, I’m gonna put you on hold for a minute. John, go ahead. You wanted to
Jon: Yeah, I, uh, a- and I know that this sometimes can come up as a point of contention with the, uh, the women in our, in our quad, but, uh, the, um, the f- the feeling I get of going to the sex club that we belong to, uh, just Beep and I sometimes, it’s kind of fun to go there behaving like, like children that are set free in the, in a toy store or something like that, you know?
There’s this, like, feeling of like, “Hee hee hee hee.” Like, we don’t have our, we don’t have our wives and, and girlfriends and fiancées, uh, watching over us and stuff, whatever. And it’s a, a fun little, like, silliness. But, uh, I do fi- I, I love, like, like [00:09:00] wingmanning and, and including him in, in the things that I’m doing there and stuff like that.
I, I find it kind of exciting to be, uh, very, uh, arm in arm at the club with him.
Alonzo banx: John, you’ve had many close male friends in your life. How does a normal male friendship compare with a metamour?
Jon: Super different. Uh, with your regular friends, like your vanilla friends, the expectation is that they treat you okay. I think with a metamour, you’re expecting them to treat everybody that you’re in love with okay as well. Like, not just okay, but to really honor the people that you love. So there’s a much higher bar to get over, I think, at least for me, uh, in terms of expectations.
So there is that.
Alonzo banx: Would you agree with that? Don’t worry, Patty, I’m gonna get back to you
Beeb: With your everyday vanilla, whatever you want to call it, friends. I, like my good friend, I don’t ever… Heather hardly ever sees him. Um, see him on the daily just [00:10:00] because we work in the same place, but one of those that doesn’t really involve the QE. I could hang out with him, and that’s that. Um, when you’re dealing with metamour, I gotta look for someone that, is he treating my wife right? How does, you know, h- as a person, what is he like? Is, how does he treat his own wife? You know, especially now that I’m, I’m getting involved with her. And so you have those, those things to navigate. So they definitely have a higher bar than your everyday friend
Alonzo banx: Interesting. Patty, would you have? Well, you had something you wanted to say
Patty: Uh, I do think because of the way that we are poly, we are a quad, so, um, you know, John and, and Beeb are friends, but close friends. We spend a significant amount of time together, so while John and Beeb don’t necessarily hang out alone as often as they want to, four of us are together. Um, and so we s- we spend a significant amount of time together. Um, and I think [00:11:00] that that makes things a little bit easier for John and Beeb to operate as metamours so well, as I, I think that they’re closer than just metamour, I guess. Um, so I think that really does help a lot when we’re considering, you know, we’re talking about eventually all cohabitating together. Um, their relationship is extremely important to me, that they get along each other and have a really deep level of friendship and respect for each other and enjoy each other too, so.
Alonzo banx: I want to go off on that for a second. Um, metamours, the term does not mean that you like each other or get along. Um, the term started in 20- oh, in 2004, as opposed to paramour, which has been used for over 600 years. The word metamour is less than 25 years old, and I know a lot of metamours that don’t like each other. Um, so I think what, what John and Bebe are [00:12:00] talking about is a unique friendship. How unique is that in everyone’s experience? Do metamours always get along? Cupcake, please
Cupcake: Um, so as far as my experience with having a metamour, I was in two previous, poly relationships before meeting my husband ten years ago. and both those situations were not very, I would say, was not healthy poly. So my first poly relationship, I was new and didn’t understand really any of it and felt very uncomfortable. the first time that my partner at the time was seeing someone else, it was a very not connected, uh, situation. I, I didn’t feel comfortable even being around them because I didn’t understand it. I didn’t really want to be part of that, um, I didn’t really understand it. I felt threatened. I felt, um, uncomfortable.
I felt, you know, a sense of possible abandonment. [00:13:00] And so that wasn’t really a good experience for me. Um, and then my second relationship that was poly, I wasn’t even allowed to associate with my, alleged metamour. I was a, basically a secret for about a year. Um, I wasn’t allowed to approach them when they were together. Lots of very not, again, good examples of what, you know, you, you would hope is a, a successful poly relationship. even now having an official metamour, I still don’t really understand how to navigate it. I, really do, uh, like them. Um, but we’ve had our, our, our, our bumpy road on kind of really understanding what our relationship is, and we’re just, you know, working on it daily.
You know, there’s been ups and downs, but it’s been– it’s still a new experience for me because, you know, with, uh, Noah and Cookie, I’m involved with both of them, so it’s not the same experience. So having this kind of be a [00:14:00] more healthy, natural metamour sit-situation, I’m still figuring out how to move and handle it all.
Alonzo banx: Yeah, Michael, go ahead. And Blake, I’ll get to you in just a second. Michael was up first
Michael: Yeah, I, um, uh, it’s interesting that I, I’ve had, I’ve had quite a few paramours that, um, that my partner is… Like, the closeness that I have about the relationships with my paramours is sharing with my partner what my feelings are, what’s going on. She’s always very open in hearing about what’s going on with me, regardless of the relationship she has with them. And over the years, the thing that we’ve learned from it is some of them, she treats them all really well. Some of them she likes spending more time with than others, you know? And it’s like at first I was like, I would try to be like, “Well, get along, do this,” and some of them she just didn’t wanna spend time with, and other ones she really did.
So it just [00:15:00] it organically f- you know, show up in how often they talk or whether they do or, you know, a lot of times they’ll come stay at the house for a while, and they’ll do that. So it’s always cordial and friendly and not in the place like Cupcake was talking about, and very different levels, and what I’ve learned over the time is to not force it. Just let it be what it is. And the other thing, like I said, that’s really the big closeness we have is whoever I’m having a relationship with, my partner wants to know what my experience is for that, so that I can share what excites me, what’s going on, what I’m growing with, whatever it is. So there’s closeness whether or not they’re, whether the metamours, as you call it in this, are talking to each other or not
Alonzo banx: Michael, you used the term paramour, and, and I wanna use a, a technical definition. Paramour, technically, again, 600-year-old word,
Michael: Mm-hmm.[00:16:00]
Alonzo banx: a committed relationship it does not mean sexual.
Michael: Right
Alonzo banx: does, but it does mean an emotional connection,
Michael: Yeah
Alonzo banx: opposed to metamour, which is simply the relationship, this is my partner’s partner. So you used the term paramour. Is that, is that how you meant
Michael: Y- yeah, that’s what I– In other words, I have several– have a number of close relationships, some of them sexual, some of them not, but they’re all emotional. Like that connecting on a deep level, I have, uh, several of those that I’ve had, some of them newer, a lot of them for years. So that’s what I was trying to communicate.
Yes
Alonzo banx: you had something you wanted to say and, and I threw Michael up there ahead of you
Blake: Oh yeah, no worries. Um, yeah, a couple things. Um, I had– When I was first thinking about this topic, I thought, um, I thought, “Well, I don’t have any metamour.” But then I realized, actually, I, I do have a metamour. [00:17:00] Um, when, uh, w- when Lana and I first got together, she told me at the, from the very beginning, she said, “There is another man in my life that, that is always gonna be there. I’m always gonna love him. He’s always gonna love me.” Uh, I’ll call him Robert. Um, that’s not his actual name. But, um, uh, Robert is always gonna be in her life, and they’d always love each other. And, he was her previous partner prior to myself, and they transitioned out of their sexual relationship, but they maintained a, a close, loving, family-like relationship. in our first year together, it was kinda hard for me dealing with that. Like, there were times where she’d be going to visit him, and I would feel like I was being kept out, and that was something that I was dealing with being triggered, that I would get triggered easily if I felt like I was being left out. So there were, there was one time I remember that she was over there, and I called, and when I, on the phone, I got triggered. And, [00:18:00] um, she, so she and I were getting into an argument, and Robert came on the line and he said, “I don’t know what the issue is here, but I think that it’s a misunderstanding,” because he said, uh, “Lana would– I know Lana well, and she would never do anything to hurt you. There’s not a mean bone in her body.” And the wisdom that he showed me as a metamour, uh, really helped me to deal with him and, you know, being in our lives. And he also had to deal with the idea that his former lover was now coming to visit him with her current lover. Um, and, uh, so that’s been something that has developed over the last couple of years, um, uh, to the point where, uh, where I really view, uh, Robert as being like a family member to me.
He was recently hospitalized, and there were some times where Lana wasn’t able to, um, visit him in the hospital. And I would say, “I’ve got bad news and good news. The bad news is Lana can’t visit you. [00:19:00] Uh, the good news is that I will. I’m on my way over.” So, um, I, I really feel close to Robert, and I, I have a lot of affection, uh, toward him. Um, another piece that has occurred to me is that, um, on a smaller level, just being play partners, if you’re, uh, or, or being in a threesome, being in a MFM thre- threesome, that there’s moments in that that are kind of, uh, metamour-like. Uh, and so what I’ve found is, um, I’ve, uh- went through– We’re, we’re in this year of opening with, uh, Dr.
Jolie, uh, w-who was on the podcast, uh, previously, uh, uh, runs. And, uh, we’re really exploring a lot of things about moving into more openness. And one of the things we did was a ritual where we let go of something. And what I let go of was my, um, need to control– to have control over the outcome in social situations.
So I wrote on the sand, uh, at, at the [00:20:00] beach with my toe, I wrote the word control and watched as the waves washed it away. And what surprised me was how strongly, uh, that really helped, that I found myself in a place emotionally shortly after that. And I was no longer– I specifically was saying that I was letting go of my need to control my beloved’s love life. And that change in perspective, it’s like can love everyone and anyone who she wants. And I had always known that intellectually, but going through this ritual of washing away the idea of control, I found myself so much more open and free and, um, and the play partners, uh, recognized that too, and, and felt more comfortable.
Alonzo banx: Noah, please go ahead
Noah: Yeah. I, I’m actually curious, uh, if you don’t mind me posing a question to the group, is how do we feel about metamours you don’t have any contact with?
Alonzo banx: Go ahead. Oh, well, uh, Cup-, uh, Cupcake was up first. Heather, you’re right behind her. So Cupcake, go ahead
Cupcake: [00:21:00] So kind of based off my story and my first experiences, it really, when I s- into this with my husband, you know, a few years ago and started really pursuing this, I, because of my past experiences, it was kind of kitchen table or no. It was a, I wanna make sure that I’m having a positive relationship with whoever is partnered with my partner. So to me, I don’t know if I could ever handle something like that where I have no absolute connection with them s- specifically because of my past experience. I wanna be able to trust that person. I wanna be able to know that I have something in common with them because then to me it kind of questions the fact of, like, I don’t have any commonalities with somebody, I don’t know how they connect with my partner, I guess.
Like, it brings out, like, an… I don’t know. It just, to me, I wanna, I wanna know that I have that connection. I personally wouldn’t really like that kind of situation.
Alonzo banx: [00:22:00] Interesting. How do I get back to that? Um, uh, but Heather and then Patty is up next. So Heather, please
Heather: Um, I have a that’s been bottoming for me for two years. Um, and we’re not poly. Uh, it is a BDSM dynamic, kink dynamic. And, um, I– he ha- he has a wife. Uh, I have met her a few times. Um, we’re not really connected in any kinda way. I think I would have a problem not meeting her, ’cause I would want to know that she’s okay with everything that’s happening and she’s good with it. Um, if I had never met her, it would be a problem for me. I think it’s definitely developed a deeper trust, uh, with my sub. So don’t know if I could ever not meet my meta. but I don’t necessarily need a relationship with them
Alonzo banx: Ready
Patty: I, um, so I have [00:23:00] a metamour I don’t really get to connect with or see a whole lot, and it is very disjointed for me. It is a bit, um, unco- it almost is confusing to me. I have, um, I know and get along with, um, Heather’s partner and, um, really like her. so I at least get to know like, okay, what is she needing some Heather time alone?
And I get to sense that and, and make sure that I support that. Is, um, she struggling? And then I, I can make sure that, that she always gets what she needs. And, uh, those relationships are important to me, um, even if I don’t get to have like just one-on-one direct contact, but just being in the same room sometimes going to the same things at times, I really, um, appreciate and like that.
Um, when I don’t have that, it definitely feels disjointed for me and kind of [00:24:00] separate and cut off, and I’m finding more and more that I appreciate more community and more kitchen table poly, um, than just the unknown, I guess, a little bit.
Alonzo banx: Yeah, um, John, I see you. Michael was next. But I think what’s happening here is that we are all kind of acknowledging that at a core, we’re all kind of kitchen table. We, we all want to know our partner’s partners. We wanna be in communication. We, we all feel better. And I know I always, I always complain about us sounding like a, um, an echo chamber where we all have the same opinion, but I, I think that’s kind of universal with the people at this table tonight, that we like being in communication. Um, Patty, I’m gonna let you respond, and then it’s Michael and Heather, but, um, Michael and John. But Patty, please
Patty: I think for me, having that level of communication allows me direct knowledge if, uh, if my partner’s partner is truly okay with what’s happening. [00:25:00] If they’re on board with everything or if they’re struggling, then what do I need to do to make sure that that isn’t… I don’t get in the way of things. I don’t… Those kind of, that level of communication, I feel better having that for myself. I’m not saying that one’s right or wrong, um, but for me, I really enjoy that, so I do feel out of balance when they don’t have that.
Alonzo banx: Yeah, I, I mean, for me, Patti, I agree because it’s that check and balance. It’s making sure that this is ethical non-monogamy, that my partner’s partner is aware and, you know, we’re all on the same page. But I wanna jump back. Um, Michael and then John, you’re up next, please.
Michael: Yeah, and I might have a little different angle on this actually. Um, I, I agree there’s a time that there isn’t that connection, it feels like a lost opportunity. I definitely hear the feelings about to connect, and I’m always looking to connect with whoever. And if there’s somebody having a relationship with my partner, it’s like it feels like an opportunity to be able to share things ’cause we [00:26:00] have something in common.
And the dynamic I’ve run into, um, my partner’s main– when she has relationships, it’s mainly a dominant-submissive relationship where she’s submissive with them. And what I’ve found in that is that a lot of times the guys that she’s in a relationship with being from a dom position, like there’s been a couple times that she’s had a couple of her best relationships in that, that they were like, “I don’t wanna meet your husband.
I don’t wanna meet your partner.” Like, like they just didn’t want to. They knew about me. They just didn’t want to. It changed the dynamic of what was there. And while I felt like it was a lost opportunity in that I wouldn’t get in the way because all that matters is it’s working for her. it’s working for her and she feels okay about it, then I’m not gonna be like, “Well, he’s gotta talk to me,” or like i– that’s inconceivable to me to like get in the way of what works for her. If it’s working for her, it’s [00:27:00] working for her. And sure, I f- I would prefer it because I feel like there’s opportunity in it, but I definitely don’t require it
Alonzo banx: What people at home don’t see is there’s a whole lot of nodding heads in agreement as you were, as you were just talking. John, please
Jon: Yeah, I, I might have a slightly different take on that as well as, uh, um, I think there’s, there’s value on both sides of this sort of token in a way. Um, with, with somebody that you have an ex- a relationship that you know that you’re talking to and stuff, whatever, whenever there’s something that comes up, you can, you can probably work things out because you can talk to both people maybe, or you could, you could have an inside perspective on what’s going on and, and know some information that might be helpful in the situation and stuff, whatever, you know?
Like, I don’t know, maybe Beeb is coming off a little weird to Patty, and Patty is expressing to me that like, “I don’t know what’s going on, but I know that Beeb is maybe preoccupied with something else, or he’s got something else going on in his life that he’s struggling with.” And I can say, “Hey, you know, this is going on.”
Uh, on the other side with the m- [00:28:00] other metamour that I have is that I have an entirely outside perspective. So when Patty comes to me with a kind of, you know, “This is how I’m feeling about things,” I can side with her completely, but I can also come at her with a, with an outside sort of, uh, perspective on it and say, “Hey, listen, whatever this conversation is, I think you might be taking it wrong.
I’m guessing because, uh, this could mean, uh, several things.” I don’t know ’cause I, I don’t really talk with this other person that much. Uh, he’s– he sends me messages when Patty’s like with him or, or leaving to come back home or something like that as a respectful thing that he wants to do for me. But outside of that, we’ve had very little conversation really.
But, um, so I don’t know that much about him and, and the relationship that she’s building with him is completely separate from my experience with him, so. Uh, but it does afford me that opportunity to be a third party to the conversation when it comes to that. So I’m not sure how much value there is [00:29:00] there for that, but it feels like there’s something.
Alonzo banx: Noah, I see you, but I want to address something with Patty. Patty, um, that means that you have John a position where he has two entirely different set of metamours. He has a very close friendship and a personal relationship with Bebe, yet he’s a little disconnected your other partners. How does that feel to you?
How does that affect your relationships?
Patty: Sometimes it can be a challenge. Um, it can be a challenge because if, uh, my world isn’t integrated into one place, I sometimes feel pulled in different directions. uh, if I’m not allocating enough time to somebody, I’m not meeting their needs. Um, it’s a lot easier as a quad to meet each other’s needs because we all hang out, we all see each other, we’re all connected. [00:30:00] a lot harder to meet the needs of somebody that connected to that for me. And for John, that means that, know, um, we have to weigh, okay, how do he and I get our time together, and how is that a priority, and where do these other relationships fit in, um, as far as, like, time-wise on, on things?
So it can be, uh, a little bit of a juggling act for me. Less with Heather and, um, Beeb. Harder, more of a juggling act with a separate person
Alonzo banx: Noah?
Noah: Yeah. , So, you know, and, and getting back more specifically to, you know, metamours that you have no contact with. I guess I’m– I’m, , kinda hoping is maybe some, for some feedback on my own opinion. And I– when I think about that… Now, I’ve not experienced this, which is why I kinda [00:31:00] have a lot of curiosity around it, ’cause I have known other people who have, , paramours when they don’t have any relationship at all, no contact with the metamour. And, , for me, when I immediately hear that, I think red flag in the sense of, , I, … kind of like what Heather was saying earlier, no idea how they interact with their partner or how they treat their partner. , I, I guess for me, and, , maybe this comes, kinda comes from my BDSM background, maybe it’s from some toxic masculinity that I learned throughout my childhood, I don’t know.
But there’s, there’s this sense of, of, … feel like I need to protect my lovers, right? I-in the sense of I need to know they’re with. So if I were to be a metamour to some other person, have to meet them at some point. It doesn’t necessarily need to be the day that they met their, my, my lover, right?
However, I don’t know that I could ever be okay with someone who is fine with, not ever meeting me if I am with their or girlfriend or whoever, , [00:32:00] and vice versa. I don’t– It, it feels dangerous to me in the, in the sense of, , you’re just allowing your person to be with someone you’ve never met before, and, and y-you– there’s no sense of, , trying to make sure that it’s, it’s a healthy, honest, good relationship. maybe I’m being too protective, and I kinda wanna know. Get a, get a temperature check on that.
Alonzo banx: I’m, I’m gonna address that from the same thing from a different direction. If I’m with a play partner and I know that they’re in a committed relationship, I have to at least have met that person once, and I need to know that they know that I exist. Now, whether we become friends, whether we become connected, that’s secondary. But for me, it’s more of an honesty check. It’s a do they really know what’s going on? John.
Jon: Um, i-in response to [00:33:00] your question, Mila, um, I think that, uh, I, I think that that control can be sort of an illusion in a way. , At least in my own experience, every time I try to exert some kind of control, I think it bites me in the ass every time. Like, it just seems like if I try to exert any of this sort of thing, it, it, it comes back at me in some way that’s– that it just feels like it’s not healthy in the end.
, Anytime that I’ve really let go, , , I think that my life has opened up and blossomed in ways that I couldn’t even imagine before I did that. So, , early, early on with Patty, I was that way, you know. Just like, “You know what? I’m, I’m done with jealousy. I, I gotta try to push that off and, and not experience that the way that I’ve been experiencing it.
I need to redefine this and stuff,” whatever. And, , and so with Patty, it was always just a very like, , “I, I want you to be in my life, but I’m not gonna pretend like I have control over what you decide to do, , today or tomorrow or any other [00:34:00] day. So please enjoy the time with me. If you have a problem with it, then, then you’re gonna probably wanna move on.
If you, if you feel like I’m not enough for what you need in your life and stuff, whatever, I’ll– I can deal with that.” , And letting that go, and I think that, that lack of pressure sort of helped us become a lot more sort of open and really kinda led us to where we’re at now. , , I think that that has underlined a lot of the, my behaviors in a way, , that I just develop a relationship with someone, with Patty, with Heather, with whomever that I’m with, that I learn who they are through what they do, and I, and I love them for who they are and, and what they do.
And, , sometimes it might fit in my life, and sometimes it doesn’t. In, in the past, I’ve had girlfriends where it, it didn’t end up working out for me and stuff, whatever. Like, our relationship didn’t make sense after a while. , Sometimes really fast. But, , , yeah, I don’t know. For me, for me, it just feels like it, it hasn’t been a healthy expression [00:35:00] of, , of trying to do that.
I, I do think it’s good to want safety for your person, and I think there’s, there’s plenty of safety questions to ask and stuff like that. But, , to say that I have to meet somebody before or after or something like that might be, might be overstepping in my head.
Alonzo banx: We got a whole bunch of responses coming. It’s gonna be Cupcake, Blake, Patty, Bebe, and then Heather. So in order, Cupcake, you’re up first
Cupcake: I think my point that I kinda wanted to, like, really kind of cement is I think it has a lot to do with trust. And only do I wanna trust that person’s going to take care of my partner, I want them to trust me in the same respect. Because if there’s not mutual trust and respect, Noah was saying, to me there’s red flags. It’s, there’s something that’s not connecting, and I think that only can bubble up into a volcano that eventually erupts. So, like, [00:36:00] not only do I wanna trust them, but I want them to trust that I’m not going to do anything to upset them either
Alonzo banx: Thank
Blake: Uh, yeah, so it was interesting to me that the word control came up, that John mentioned it, uh, as control and, and that was what I was referring to earlier is the thing that I’m giving up, uh, right now, and, and how that relates to safety in our relationship is the thing that, uh, gives Lana the most fear is that I’m going to react badly. And so if I’m giving up control, and I’m not going to react badly, then she feels more safety, and she’s expressed to me how much more free she feels since I’m letting go of control. , There’s also the flip side of that, I think, is the, , the idea of, , of honesty. , Lana and I, , have a very strong a- a- agreement that we, we don’t like don’t ask, don’t tell. So if, if– and we’ve seen this in our, with our play [00:37:00] partners, is that I’m not willing to be in a play situation where I have to keep a secret from somebody, , who might be a friend as well. , And so I’m, I’m not willing to enter into a don’t ask, don’t tell, just ’cause I’m not willing to keep a secret myself or to be a secret
Alonzo banx: Ready?
Patty: I’m the opposite of John. I absolutely would not be okay with him, uh, uh, dating somebody that I’ve never met. I’m okay with him going on a date with somebody I haven’t met. I’m not okay with him having a partner that I’ve never met, and the reason being that is need to be able… John is my person. Beeb is my person.
Heather is my person. I need to know that they’re gonna be treated well by the person that they are with, uh, I don’t feel like everybody deserves people. I share my people. However, if [00:38:00] you’re going to enter into something so investing with my people, I expect them to be worthy of that, and I need to be able to meet them to have a say so.
I won’t tell John, “You can’t go do this. You can’t do that,” unless, unless there is something there that makes me feel very uncomfortable. And, , that is directly… You know, there have been times where, , the person that I have let into our world was not trustworthy, and it was, it was a mess. I… While John says he doesn’t need that from me, I would, wouldn’t ever have a boyfriend that he’s never met, ever. I would never be truly comfortable with that, and it would be odd to not meet Beeb or Heather’s partners to me. I don’t like it. No, thank you
Alonzo banx: Keith, you’re up next
Beeb: For me is when I p- pick [00:39:00] someone outside of the QE, I almost, I, I want them to, that person to meet Heather and Patty. I almost need them to like that person. Not have to have a relationship, just to like them as a person. And the reason being is ’cause that opens up doors for me. it makes my life easier.
I don’t have to, um, not having Patty or Heather have the jealousy or, you know, anxiety of me going out with this person. If they have a, you know, a like for that person, then they’re like, “Oh yeah, go out. Have a good time.” But if they’re not liking this person or they’ve never met it, uh, it’s just, they’re gonna be like, “Ugh, you’re gonna go out with this person again?”
Alonzo banx: Heather?
Heather: I have so much to say on this. I’m honestly shocked about John’s revelation of, “I don’t need to meet people.” we have … Uh, the QE has always been kitchen table poly, so this is honestly shocking to me, and I don’t believe it. [00:40:00] Transparently, I don’t believe that John would be okay with me dating a dude sure, having a relationship with him, and never meeting him ever
Alonzo banx: John?
Jon: I 100% would prefer all the time to meet the person, right? Like that, that’s way more valuable to me. Uh, whether or not I need it, uh, I don’t know about that. , , so when Beeb is talking about it, you know, it’s easier if, if you meet this person and that you like this person and stuff, whatever.
It makes it a lot easier for sure. , But for me personally, like if you’re meeting somebody– so let, , I, I wanna throw names and I’m not going to. But there are some people that you have met where you’re like, “Oh, you know, I met this person. I think they’re very interesting. I wanna, I wanna explore something or whatever.”
Some of them I’ve met, some of them I’ve maybe ever seen at a party or something like that and, and hardly even talked to or, or never talked to. And, and to me, I have to have that trust with you, that, that [00:41:00] I have to offer you that trust. Otherwise, I don’t think I’m, I don’t think I’m behaving the way that I should be behaving with you.
100% I would want to meet the person, would want to develop, , some kind of a friendship or some kind of a communicative, you know… Be able to talk to them and stuff, whatever, and, and just get to know them so that, , so that I can feel probably more comfortable. But, , I don’t know. To, to me, I just, I, I don’t necessarily want to have that control, I guess.
Alonzo banx: Michael, I see you, Cupcake, you’re up after Michael. Heather, any rebuttal to that? Patty? Either of you have anything to say directly to what Mr. John just put out there?
Patty: I feel protected if any of my partners notice red flags and say, “No, you can’t go out with this person.” In the moment, I might be like, “What? Oh, man.” I feel protected if somebody else can [00:42:00] notice some things that I am blind to because maybe so-and-so is really hot or maybe so-and-so is really this or that.
I feel more protected when somebody is more, a little bit more of like, “No, you can’t do that.”
Heather: I don’t see it as a control issue at all. I, I see it as a safety issue. Um, and I don’t believe for a second you would be okay with me having a relationship with a man and you never, never meeting him. You, that you’d just be magically okay with this No, I don’t believe it at all. You are, like, you always wanna make sure Patty and I are safe.
You won’t even let me go to a frat party, but you’ll let me date some guy So.
Jon: Oh, I definitely don’t trust you with Patty at a frat party, that’s the problem
Patty: Hey. It shouldn’t.
Jon: You do, you
Alonzo banx: supposed
Jon: an enabler
Alonzo banx: Cupcake is gonna explode if I don’t give her the microphone here. So, [00:43:00] uh, rather than, let Cupcake go into some kind of seizure here, we gotta let her say what she’s thinking
Cupcake: Listen, I think I understand what John’s trying to say. He res- what I’m thinking he’s kind of, um, maybe missing in his communication is the word autonomy. The respect of your partner to do what is o- like, right for them, and I think that’s where we’re getting confused. It’s not the necessity of him not needing to meet somebody.
He respects you enough to know that if that was a chance that that was an option, he would respect your autonomy in that situation
Alonzo banx: Michael, I see you. John, is that true?
Jon: Oh yeah, 100%. Yeah, uh, for sure. Uh, I think I missed that very valuable word of autonomy. , , I just, , yeah, I, offer that amount of like freedom and respect. It would 100% be, , something that I would not prefer, of course, but, , but it’s [00:44:00] available there
Alonzo banx: Heather, I’m gonna let you respond only to what John just said ’cause Michael’s getting ready to say something, so
Heather: I firmly believe that John has a huge respect for both Patty and I’s autonomy and even Beep’s. Um, I still don’t believe for a second that he would not ever need to meet if I magically was like, “Hey, this person’s gonna be my boyfriend now.” And John- No, but yes, I do feel that John has a huge respect for my autonomy and lets me, uh, explore myself and be myself 100%.
Alonzo banx: Michael, I’ve been putting you on the back
Michael: Yeah, no. Well, Cup- Cupcake said it really well, ’cause the autonomy, the autonomy’s really the big thing. So I think that… I don’t… And I, I wanna acknowledge John taking a risk here, ’cause I’m talking about things and I don’t have anybody involved in it, and he’s jumping in and being honest with something that’s, my stomach’s jumping up and down, so I [00:45:00] can only imagine. So I, I just… it’s about the autonomy. It’s about, like when Noah said, “I, you know, I don’t know if I’d be okay with somebody that allowed…” When you start using words about allow or say no or veto, like, my skin crawls. It’s like, yes. It’s like I would, Cupcake, to your point, if there was somebody that my partner was involved in and I saw red flags, I would absolutely communicate those.
Or you were talking about that, too, Baddie. I would communicate those. And it goes back to where John is. It still matters trusting her to make decisions as an adult, autonomous being to make her choices of what’s there. It’s like, not that it’s not a pre- it’s not a, preference. I’m always gonna prefer to meet involved and do that.
I think we’d all agree on that. It’s when you start talking about wouldn’t let, you know, wouldn’t allow. Like, it’s, that’s where I start to go sideways with it. It’s like, because it’s not… [00:46:00] I don’t need to make sure that somebody’s treating her well. I need her to tell me that they’re treating her well.
Like, that’s the bottom line
Alonzo banx: You know, I’m, I’m gonna say something here there are many different relationship styles in this conversation, and when you come into this as a relationship style of a fundamentally BDSM relationship, like allow are part of our relationship style. They’re not negative. Our partners desire us to have that level. So where in a conventional, you know, poly relationship that may be absolutely socially incorrect, when you come at it from a kink relationship or a BDSM relationship, those are fundamental premises of the relationship, and in that context, it doesn’t take on the same meaning.
Noah, you wanted to reply to that?
Noah: Yeah, no, it, and I’m in full agreement with you, Alonso. Um, but I also wanna say that I do feel like [00:47:00] Michael and John have both kind of taught me something about, A, the language that I use, which is important when you’re trying to convey thoughts and feelings on certain subjects. B, about maybe, , a certain way of, of, , understanding your partners, and, , it was very helpful, and I, I appreciate John brave enough in front of all of his partners to say something like this.
It would… No, and I do appreciate it, and for all of you to hash this out in front of all of us, I think is amazing. It’s a testament to your relationships and your communication styles, and I love it
Alonzo banx: I have said many times, John is who I wanna be when I grow up. So, you know, he’s, he’s the
Jon: Right
Alonzo banx: that I follow. We are running late tonight. Patty, I’m gonna throw you under the bus. Give us the end feelings for tonight. What have we learned tonight?
Patty: Patty’s got free autonomy. She’s gonna be out every night. No, I’m just kidding. Um,
Heather: Why would you [00:48:00] even say
Patty: I’m just kidding.
Cupcake: Or as
Heather: that?
Patty: Um, well, I learned some new term, terms tonight. Um, I didn’t know what a, a paramour was. , And , I liked hearing all the different types of, , relationship styles and dynamics ’cause I don’t think there is a one-size-fits-all, so it was kinda enlightening to see how everyone operates and does things. I enjoy the little back and forth with Heather and John and, and Beeb quite a bit ’cause we all like to get a little messy. So yeah, that’s it.
Alonzo banx: Blake, Michael, Noah, Heather, Cupcake, Patty, John, Beeb, what a great conversation we had tonight. Thank you guys so much. This has been another amazing episode of Poly SoCal. I’m Alonzo Banks. Good night, everyone
Heather: Good
Jon: Good night
Cupcake: Good night