What does it actually look like when three people build a real life together? Not the theory, not the fantasy, the dishwasher, the finances, the king size bed, the moment someone asks if you want to wear a ring. Alonzo sits down with Kat, Joshua, and Natalie of The Kink Collective to talk about how a triad that has been living, working, and traveling together actually makes it work day to day. Joshua opens up about two decades of relationship failures before he finally found the courage to say what he needed out loud. Kat talks about what it felt like to always be the one in the way — and what it means to finally be with people who genuinely want her there. And Natalie, the newest member of this family, explains why she chose to stay when things got hard instead of running like she had before. No one is selling a perfect life here. They are just three people who did the work and can tell you exactly what that looked like. 

PolySoCal – E45- Making it work, the Kink Collective
[00:00:00] 
Alonzo banx: Welcome back to the Poly SoCal Podcast. I am Alonzo Banks. I’m super excited. We have The Kink Collective from New York in with us today. Kat, Joshua, Natalie, welcome
Cat: Hello.
Alonzo banx: It’s great to have you guys back. So today we’re gonna get a little deeper into how you guys make poly work and how, what your story is. So first, I introduced you as the New York King Collective. Someone wanna tell me what that is?
Joshua: We started off as The Leather Family in New York City about eight years ago, and With the Leather Family, it was built around who embodied the philosophy, people before kink, before it was even a philosophy, people before kink. The philosophy came with The Kink Collective Leather Family, because Kat and I were going through two different shifts in our lives, and we had met and we’d come together, and the people who were part of that family supported us not only through their actions but also through the embodiment of [00:01:00] the spaces that we held, meaning could come and find safe education and knowledge and wisdom and people who can point them in the right direction if we didn’t have the information. A lot of the ego was removed so that we can be the best versions of ourselves on a leather community level. time progressed, it evolved into a business that we are today, The Kink Collective
Cat: No
Joshua: We’re an organization that helps people reframe their relationship with sex and sexuality, and we help them learn how to establish deeper relationships through introspection and communication. The Kink Collective now s- represents the avenue in which people have gotten here to this journey and to this version of trying to develop a deeper relationship with self, and the Collective is on the emotional maturity level, ’cause not everyone’s on the same level when it comes to personal responsibility, accountability, presence, and who they’re showing up in community, that’s where The Kink [00:02:00] Collective differentiates ourselves from everyone else. We’re here through the lens of sexual- sex and sexuality and the empowerment of that journey and also on the community level of emotional maturity, meaning we can have the hard conversations, and safe space doesn’t necessarily mean you’re gonna be safe from being triggered. What it also means is this is a safe space to process when you are activated
Alonzo banx: You talk about deeper relationships through BDSM and self. Kat, what does that mean?
Cat: It means that when you begin to earnestly explore your desire we offer a container and a process by which you can engage in that exploration through introspection, through authenticity, through a container, through safety. We have a a framework that we help people use to be able to engage with other people safely and in a way that is meaningful and leads to [00:03:00] genuine connection
Alonzo banx: Natalie, does it work?
Natalie: Yes, absolutely. And I feel like I am one to tell. us and for me, BDSM and kink has allowed me to learn how to ask for what I want the safety of a container. And we spoke about and how we define safety in our container, and that is, again, a space where you are gonna get triggered. There’s a con- almost a confirmation that you’re gonna get triggered. But at least, the very least, have people who you trust to support you through what you need to realize and work through. what that is usually is limiting beliefs that were passed down upon you, and now we’re here to question what those limiting beliefs are and reframe those beliefs into something that we actually believe to be true.
So BDSM me the ability to see what is actually true for [00:04:00] me in a safe container, and here I am, and I have everything I have glowing remarks.
Alonzo banx: Now we’ve had you three on before, so I know the answer to this question, but you are a triad, right?
Natalie: We are.
Alonzo banx: give me the background on that? The how, when, the where, how long? How’d y’all get to this situation?
Joshua: You wanna jump on it first? I’ll jump on it first. So Kat
Cat: Jump on it
Joshua: More than eight years ago at this point. Where we were having a difficult– I was having– going through a diff-difficult breakup. She was going through a difficult transition where she had just lost her husband to cancer. And our alignment came in the integrity of the spaces that we held, meaning the philosophy People Before Kink was practiced before we had a name for it, Kat in her own version and myself in my own version. Kat was hosting swing events mostly, and some kink [00:05:00] events. I was hosting events. When we connected, our missions and directions were very much aligned, and created space for us to con-connect intimately, personally, because we both walked along similar values, and that’s how Kat and I got connected. Since then, I’ve been in a number of different power exchange relationships and time went on. Three years ago, met Natalie. We met Natalie at an event that we were hosting Natalie and I connected initially, where we got to sit and speak, and I got to learn about her in a way that I generally don’t connect with others when I’m out there meeting people, ’cause I didn’t… Months before, I made a video about not wanting to connect with anyone that wasn’t my age, because there’s absolutely nothing we would have in common. And sure enough, the universe laughed at me and introduced me to Natalie, who was my my junior, old enough to be my daughter. [00:06:00] And what connected me with Natalie was- The intense focus she was working on her mental health through. She was really focused on back into alignment with a healthier version of herself in a way that most people my age don’t even talk. And that’s what drew me to her initially. When we finally got to connect speak and dive deeper into it, and I also had a lot in alignment when it came to the type of relationship styles we were looking to engage in. Natalie was looking for a master, was looking for a slave. And now that sounds pretty archaic to a lot of people who don’t understand the language, and in some cases, it can actually be executed that way. But the way it really stepped into was mas- teacher-student. And when it came to power exchange, the agreement was, “I will help you achieve your goals and your dreams, and you help me achieve my goals and my dreams, and we will both show up as the best versions [00:07:00] of our, ourselves that we possibly can. And if there’s a rupture, we will do our best to work on it.” And that’s how our agreement and how our foundation started. Over the next few months, I think it was eight months, Nat, where we were– six or eight months where we were discussing and negotiating what our relationship would look like, she met Kat and their relationship started to build. but initially it was Natalie and myself who were in a power exchange relationship that was intimate and romantic and s- and sexual. The relationship with, between Kat and Natalie evolved over the last three years into what we call a, what was it? What was it? 
Natalie: Mentorship.
Joshua: a mentorship. And it’s a mentorship because of the two different areas of their lives that they’re in, but also the level of intimacy and romance that’s evolved over that time genuinely is their foundation.
But I’ll let you guys take it from there
Natalie: Yeah. I actually just came up with this romantic mentorship [00:08:00] title for I and Kat’s relationship in a podcast that we did last week, and it almost over me so suddenly and from a place where I have no idea where it came from. Because we have had no label for our relationship, let alone we, we never labeled ourselves a triad until we were forced to some senses. About a year ago we were asked to participate in a competition, and it was an educational power exchange title. And we won for the Northeast, and we won was the, our ability to teach power exchange and power dynamics to the public, to people who wanted to learn more about us. So within that title run, we were asked to label ourselves in our relationship style.
So it’s not like we usually go around running around telling people that we’re a triad, but now that we have the, a close label to, to [00:09:00] represent who we are, ’cause I really don’t think that labels can really fulfill what is actually present, they allow us to build community and they allow us to connect with other people who have similar structures.
So there’s that to take from a label. But in general, yeah, me and Kat, we built our relationship from Joshua, him being the center of all the other relationships that we connected from in, in the polycule. And now we have some sort of label to be able to describe are together without having to fall deep into a huge explanation, although it deserves an explanation.
Cat: Yeah.
Alonzo banx: the…
Cat: go ahead. I’m sorry.
Alonzo banx: No cat, please
Cat: No I just wanted to add to that, that I think it was a year and a half ago, I don’t remember. I apologize for the background noise ’cause we have puppies. When did you move in, Natalie? Like a year and a half ago? Two years ago? Yeah. It seems like forever ago. It seems [00:10:00] like you’ve always been here.
But Joshua and I have been cohabitating, as it were, for almost all of the eight years we’ve been together, and then Natalie moved in with us, and so we are a twenty-four/seven relationship. We live together. We work together. We do a lot of thing– We travel together. We do a lot of things together. And so that’s an aspect of who and what we do.
Joshua and Natalie definitely started their relationship together, and then in all fairness to Natalie I was here. Like I, I’m… Joshua and I are what most people would consider a primary relationship, right? And we only use these titles to help people better understand who we are and what we do.
We’re not really big fans of all the titles to begin with because Natalie is in no way a lesser partner in this triad than Joshua or I. But it’s not like Natalie came in and there was some option for me to not be here. That was never an option. So her adjusting to [00:11:00] being in a relationship with both of us was something that she voluntarily took on to do because that was what she was basically offered.
And so we’ve had not a hard road, but we’ve had a very thoughtful road to get from where we were to where we are now. And and I’m really grateful. I’m really grateful for it. There’s– If there’s an age difference between Joshua and Natalie, there’s a larger age– there’s a larger age difference.
There’s a fourteen-year gap between Joshua and myself. And that, that gap between Natalie and I is significant by anybody’s standards, and yet we manage to make it work. So the mentorship piece has a lot to do with just the stages that we are in our life experience. I have things to offer her, and honestly, she has things to offer me.
I learn from her all the time. So it’s not like that learning or mentorship thing is just a one-way street, ’cause it certainly is not.
Alonzo banx: You two had been living together Kat and Joshua, you’d been [00:12:00] living together for five and a half years, six years at the point that you met Natalie?
Cat: Correct
Alonzo banx: So let’s talk about that transition. First, structure. Bedrooms, money, household repairs, how do you make it work? Separate rooms, one room, who fixes the dishwasher when it breaks?
About the
Cat: okay.
Alonzo banx: three people in a house
Cat: I’ll take the lead on that. Between Joshua and I, the way the structure has been is I’m in charge of most of household things. I’m in charge of finances, I’m in charge of the, most of the decisions that get made around that stuff, although I’m not, dictatorial about anything.
I’m much more of a collaborative person, just in my general demeanor. Natalie’s move in was fairly seamless, to be honest. But, we have a philosophy that whoever does best at something is the one who leads. Like, when it comes to fixing things, that’s not me. I’m not good at fixing things.
Josh was [00:13:00] much handier at things than I am, and so he does that. I’m pretty handy at shopping and cooking and cleaning and those kinds of things, and Natalie’s been awesome at doing that with me. Like yesterday, I didn’t have such a great day, and although I had planned to cook dinner, Natalie stepped in and cooked dinner, which was amazing.
And so the day-to-day living is very fluid and based on whosever, whosever got the spoons to do whatever needs to be done is who does it Now you guys can add whatever you want.
Natalie: Yeah. I’ll add that this is, the relationship that I have with Joshua and Kat is my first relationship in truth, outside of some high school flings that I had, which I really don’t count as relationships, to be fair. when I moved in, I had… Before I moved in, I had a lot to unravel about my relationship to relationships, as well as to [00:14:00] intimacy, as well as to sex, and to my parents, which is what my first relationship was.
And a lot of what was coming up for me was information from my parents. So when I moved in, I had my own room, I had my own space, and Joshua came and slept with me, and then, and slept with Kat. I had a, I had some self-unraveling that needed to happen, and I think that lasted for about six months maybe less than that, until we all ended up… Kat bought us a king size bed, and then we moved into the king size bed and now we all share a room and we have no issues. At least I have no issue with sharing a room. As much as I would love to have some space, like it’s a, still small. Three people in a New York City, Manhattan-size room is tight, but there’s no issues
Cat: No. For three adults with clothes fetishes and leather fetishes, I think we wish we had larger walk-in closets, which we don’t. So but other than having [00:15:00] that kind of space we’re not, we don’t have trouble with the personal space or being together in our personal space. I just think we wish we each maybe had our own walk-in closet
Alonzo banx: Living in New York in the city can be a challenge sometimes. Okay, so let’s talk about the conversation that happened between Kat and Joshua you first said, “Hey, what if Natalie moved in with us?” How
Joshua: Do you remember that conversation, Mama? ‘Cause I’m gonna, I’m gonna say this, and people may say, take it as woo-woo or not, but years and years ago, said… I said, “Dear God,” I says, “I would love to meet someone who’s young, who is motivated, who can commit themselves to me, and I can commit myself to them, and make ’em young and make ’em a dancer.” that specifically. I said that years ago. met Natalie, and we’d spoken, [00:16:00] and there was a few things that were in alignment. She was talking about wanting, to in a power exchange relationship like that. And fast-forward after our initial meet, we went on a walk where her and I got to s- talk about we’re looking for in relationship and connection. And she laid out the things exactly how I said them. She was young, committed looking for lived experience of a power exchange, wants to pursue her goals but also be supportive of someone else. It was like it was all in alignment with what I had shared. Now, I say that because and I met-
Cat: And she’s a dancer
Joshua: And she’s a dancer.
She hit all of it. She hit all of it. But when Kat and I met, I had to… I wasn’t in my– I wasn’t my best version. I was still unlearning things I had to unlearn, and one of them was not being able to feel like I felt s- like I could feel safe enough to say what I meant. And Kat, over the years, over those first four years, [00:17:00] gave me space to find my language, to, to find– to believe her when she said, “You can tell me anything.” And as time progressed, Kat and I got very close. COVID was a pressure cooker under either make or break us, and it was in that time that, that I was really able to step into saying what I mean and meaning what I say with Kat. the time we met Natalie, we had already tested out living with someone else we were in, I was in a relationship with, but that relationship wasn’t as…
things changed once they moved in, and wasn’t working out so well because of the changed priorities and the way that relationship had evolved. So I had asked Kat because Natalie, when Natalie was here, she was present, she was helping, she was, she would add to the energy.
She wouldn’t be an exemption, she wouldn’t be aside [00:18:00] from, but she would be here participating in being present in the conversations, in helping, in being proactive. She was an addition to us and our existence, not just someone in the room. So I think when the time came with Kat I just asked directly, “How do you feel about Natalie moving in?”
Cat: And I was fine with it.
Joshua: Yeah, I don’t
Cat: I,
Joshua: a big conversation
Cat: yeah, no, it wasn’t a big conversation. It wasn’t a big deal because she was already close, certainly with Joshua, and, there was some difficulty at the beginning with Natalie being comfortable with the romantic aspect of a relationship with me. And I think some of that was age, some of that was background and challenge that she had come to.
At least, that was my understanding of it. And so my only issue was that I didn’t wanna live with someone, based on this previous relationship that Joshua was mentioning, I didn’t wanna [00:19:00] live with someone who was only interested in being in a relationship with Joshua and was gonna be, basically tolerate me because she had to, right?
I was no longer willing to live under those conditions, which is kinda what the conditions were of the previous relationship. Ours was a journey to get to the point of being comfortable with the romantic element of our relationship. But there was a willingness, at least my understanding was Natalie always had a willingness for that part of our relationship to develop, and she didn’t see me as being other than in a relationship with the three of us.
She definitely was able to, in her heart, include me in what we were gonna be doing and developing, and that was enough for me. I w- with that piece in place, I was comfortable with her to move in. And then there got to be a point in time where I just… ‘Cause in all of the relationships Joshua referred to earlier, all the other power dynamics he had been in during the time we [00:20:00] were together, there was always this sense of, he and I were together, and then h- he spent time with these other people, and they were separate from me, right?
I was other than in the other relationships that he had been in. And that’s not what I wanted here, and that’s not what happened. And so I always thought of things in separate pieces. It was Joshua and I, and then it was Joshua and and Joshua and and everything was separate.
There got to be a certain point after Natalie moved in, fairly shortly after Natalie moved in, that I just began to think of things in terms of the three of us. I stopped thinking of things in terms of t- two and two, and it just became three. So when I thought about traveling, when I thought about doing things, when I thought about anything, I just thought of it that it’s the three of us that all the arrangements that I make, and all the plans, and all the things we do together.
And that’s not, it’s not to say we do [00:21:00] everything together all the time, but there’s a consideration that we’re the three of us. We’re like a family unit. That’s, and that’s what we are, at least to me and in my heart and it’s been that way for some time now. Joshua and I had exchanged rings at a certain point, and then at a certain point we were like, “We need to see if Natalie wants to wear one, too.”
And she agreed. And so the three of us wear rings that sort of, show to the outside our commitment to one another in a relationship, and that-
Joshua: I remember that day. That was nerve-wracking. It’s would she feel like she’s being included? Or maybe would she feel like she’s being compensated for? It was like, asking, and when she said yes, I was ecstatic. I was like, “Oh my God.” ‘Cause there’s always been so much competition in relationship before Natalie that it just, it made me uneasy being able to ask things like that because of how poly can get when things aren’t spoken about directly or when [00:22:00] things change.
Cat: Yeah.
Joshua: So I remember that day, yeah, the ring
Cat: Yeah, it’s really… This is so lovely for me because in these earlier situations, I was always seen as in the way. There was always a slight resentment on the part of the other partners that it would be easier for them if there wasn’t a me, and I got really tired of being mildly resented by the other parties.
And so it’s really lovely to be in a relationship where we’re just genuinely together because all three of us wanna be here, and all three of us wanna be together. Even though my relationship with Natalie is different than Natalie’s relationship with Joshua and my relationship with Joshua, right?
We all have different relationships individually, but there’s a component that is the three of us together, and with love and acceptance for each other completely. And that so nurtures my soul. That so makes me feel grounded and loved and cared for and like I’m in the right place and like I’m with the right [00:23:00] people.
I’m with my people and I’m so grateful for that
Alonzo banx: And had you been in poly relationships prior to this one?
Cat: Yeah, I had been in at least the relationship with the husband that passed away that Joshua mentioned earlier, he and I had poly, more open. We played with other people. We had other people we had relationships with. But I’ll make the argument that poly is, does, is not by definition multiple people having to all be in relationship together.
Poly can exist in this way where I have relationships and the other partner has relationships, and then those parties are not necessarily connected to anyone else but us. That’s a viable form of poly, right? And so to that degree, I had been in, that relationship and even the relationship before that.
I’ve certainly been ethically non-monogamous for, an easier way to put it. I’ve practiced ethical non-monogamy for the better part of 25 years[00:24:00] 
Alonzo banx: And this is your first triad a dedicated
Cat: is my first dedicated live-in triad, yes
Alonzo banx: How about you, Josh? Joshua, sorry
Joshua: I’ve failed miserably many times in the past. No, it’s not my first. What’s tough about my relationship with intimacy is I’ve not had the courage to be straightforward about my needs I started having sex 30-something years ago, and building relationships 30-something years ago of the fear of rejection.
And I– initially, I developed a perspective of I’d rather ask for forgiveness than permission, and that led me into a lot of bad situations, a lot of bad breakups, a lot of hurt feelings because I didn’t know how to say it, and I didn’t know how it would be accepted. So I did what I knew to do, and that was to cheat. And I managed these relationships where they knew [00:25:00] about the person I was with, but the person I was with didn’t know about them, and that lasted for 20-something years. It wasn’t until the relationship before Kat where… M-maybe the relationship before that, I was able to start talking about multiple relationships and what I was seeking. And I noticed is if I didn’t show up fully, I was managing information, and it would fall apart. weren’t showing up fully, they were managing information, it would fall apart. that was the next rhythm, that was the next theme of things not being said that needed to be said. And so while I was trying different types of poly relationships or power exchange relationships where I’d have different submissives or different partners in that realm, I was still managing information because I didn’t want one person’s feelings to get hurt over another. And so say it’s not ne- but this is my first time not doing it poorly
Alonzo banx: Natalie Dancer. That kept coming up[00:26:00] 
Natalie: What’s
Cat: I’m sorry
Natalie: I am a dancer.
I went to… I have been dancing my entire life, meaning my parents put me into dance class at the age of three, and then I graduated with a degree in contemporary dance from London Contemporary Dance School in 2022. I spent a good four years dance in New York State Jerusalem, and in London. And then when I graduated from the school that I graduated from in London, I moved to New York City, and about eight months later, I met Joshua and Kat. So I’ve been a freelance dancer since I’ve graduated. I’ve had some breaks, and at the moment I’ve been a exotic dancer/midnight ballerina/stripper for about seven months.
So that’s my new genre of my degree wisely
Alonzo banx: And you said [00:27:00] that you had some minor relationships prior to this, but you jumped right into the deep end of the pool
Natalie: I sure did. I sure did. I actually had this conversation with my therapist last week. And so I had some high school flings with some girls in high school, and that was actually the first… What I believe is that I am going to receive a mirror in all of my relationships from what I was given as a child. So I’m gonna receive those patterns until I decide that those ar- they aren’t patterns anymore. So I was in a relationship in high school with two women actually, and it was back and forth and I dealt with a lot of jealousy and a lot of difficulties with ownership. And so as much as I haven’t been in a negotiated and boundaried relationship like I am now, I actually did explore polyamory to some degrees or that multiple relationships when I was in high school.
And then I also had a play [00:28:00] partner in college who was 15-ish years older than me as well, and I was exploring the, that daddy dynamic with him until I got scared again. I saw relationship patterns coming up, and I didn’t know what they were. So the relationship that I’m currently in with Joshua and Kat, I was faced with a mirror, but I was also faced with support and care to be able to dismantle what the mirror was actually showing me from what I was given and what I took from my childhood. So I’ve had some examples and some mirrors less committed relationships growing up, but this is the first relationship where I’ve actually dove in and said, “I’m gonna stay here, and I’m gonna see what this relationship is trying to tell me,” because I really truthfully love and care for Kat and Joshua
Joshua: I really appreciate you sharing that. Sorry, Alonzo. It just makes me think of… ’cause, for the people we work with, from my own experience with relationships, it’s like I, I didn’t get it right from the beginning, but I also didn’t get the rule book on [00:29:00] how to do this shit from the beginning. So as Natalie’s sharing, I’m like, thank God was able to make the choices I made early on so that I can create this space for us today, because be for you 20 years ago who I am today. And the same for Mama. I couldn’t be for you 20 years ago who I am today
Cat: You couldn’t be for me four years ago who you are for me today
You’ve done a lot of work in the time we’ve been together. I admire you for that
Alonzo banx: That way I wanna continue. So when you jumped into the world of poly, did you jump into the world of BDSM at the same time? Just how
Natalie: No. Yes and no. I had been going to kink and BDSM events since I was 18, since I moved to college, the first college that I went to. So I had been exploring my relationship to kink, BDSM, and power semi-consciously for the … I was, I … it was mostly a fun addition [00:30:00] to my weekends and to my sex life, is the best way to put it. And once I developed that relationship with the man who I was exploring that, that daddy-little girl dynamic with, I got scared because of what was presented to me in terms of my relationship. So I cut it off, and I decided to focus on my studies. But no, I, when I met Joshua and Kat, I was actually re-entering the BDSM and kink community taking a break from when I was in London studying in London, because COVID also happened while I was there.
So I, I didn’t have that ability to connect with people in the community while I was studying overseas. And so when I met them, I was almost it felt like I was exploring BDSM and kink for the first time because of their intention and their ability to actually represent it in the light that I believe it, it actually is. And how I view it [00:31:00] is the BDSM element is more so connected to the sex than anything else. How we speak and how we negotiate and how we communicate and how we develop our relationship is a framework that I believe can and should be used by people who don’t necessarily wanna have, quote-unquote, kinky sex. The erotic element is the only new addition to my life, really
Alonzo banx: That, explain that, that negotiation technique. How do you guys keep it all together?
Cat: Let me see. When you say negotiation technique, that, that gets, that almost wants to get technical for me, but how do we keep it all together is through a lot of open and honest communication. There’s no topic that’s off limits. We all commit to sharing when things come up. We don’t hide or hold things back from one another.
And in the event that one of us is struggling with something, and like sometimes [00:32:00] either of them see something in me before I see it in myself, and we always have permission. They have permission to call out what they’re seeing in me, and they grant me the same permission to say to them, “Hey it seems like you’re struggling with something,” or, “It seems like something’s going on.
What’s up?” And then, we come to the table and speak honestly. If there’s an issue… Most of the issues that, that we have are with our own journey, right? Most of the issues… I don’t have issues with either of them, for the most part, about anything. Once in a blue moon I’ll get a little bit annoyed because Natalie leaves her clothes in the bathroom, right?
That’s a really minor issue to have in the big picture, right ? It’s I can live with that as an issue. But as far as really interpersonal things we get along really well. I have my issues that I struggle with. I have my things that still activate me and my, i’m 61 years old. I wish that I would get to an arrival s- [00:33:00] place where I don’t ever have to deal with anything, but that hasn’t happened for me yet. So I I’m buckled in for, dealing with life in the long haul and and dealing with my past and dealing with feelings and dealing with awareness and, and so when I’m stuck in something or I’m struggling with something, they’re both there for me to be able to talk to about it, and sometimes one or the other of them feels more comfortable for me to talk to about. But there isn’t anything that I hide from anybody, and I don’t think they’re hiding anything from me
Alonzo banx: Josh, how do you know when it’s right? We’ve been down this road a couple of times. You’ve had a couple of relationships. How did you know this was the right one?
Joshua: So with cats And Kat allowed me a birth that I could make mistakes and recover from, and she wouldn’t shame me when I would drop the ball. She had a lot of patience knowing that I was working through shit that [00:34:00] either I did to myself or came up in relationships in the past that, that kept me from trusting or feeling like I could be vulnerable or I could be real and give a real answer without being rejected. And it was something I had never experienced the way she did. With Natalie, when we had our first discussion, the long walk we walked the length of Central Park. We walked for We were together for five hours. But in the beginning of that conversation it was something along the lines of, “I’m gonna speak to you in a way that no one’s ever spoken to you.
I’m gonna be straight with you, I’m gonna be transparent, and I’m gonna tell you the truth, and I expect the same in return. I don’t feel like you’re being truthful, isn’t gonna work.” the agreement of tell the truth, don’t lie, don’t cheat, don’t steal. Understanding that we’re gonna have bad days, but tell the truth. And when she said, “I can do that,” and when gave my promises from my side about repair on my ruptures, [00:35:00] then came the test of can we? Because I dropped the ball a number of times, and I think we all dropped the ball in some way or another a number of times, and it was like, we, how do we adjust and how do we co- change course?
How do we get back into alignment? was always willing to step up to the plate and have the hard conversations, and Natalie was always willing to step up to the plate and have the hard conversations, and we all accepted the fault and the roles that were ours to take. And it was that, it was in those moments that I’m like, “Yes, I am on the right path,” ’cause I still feel safe even when we make mistakes, even when I make mistakes. don’t feel like I can’t course correct because they’re gonna shame me for it or- that I’m gonna be some way that can’t be repaired. like they’ve given me They’ve given me a life and relationships that I not only do I feel safe and seen in, but I can trust I [00:36:00] won’t be shamed for my existence, which wasn’t always the case
Cat: I feel compelled to jump in at the moment. One of the things that I know to be true in my experience is that relationship issues only come up in relationships. That’s been my life experience. When I have something that’s related to a relationship, it do- I can do all the therapy on my own that I wanna do when I’m by myself, but those things just don’t come up.
They come up in relationships. So in-relationship, for me, has been the opportunity to work on things. And Joshua is what I call my fifth major life relationship. I’ve had five major life relationships up until now, and each of them have been proving grounds and learning lessons. So when Joshua and I connected, his past had in it invalidation for His reality.
He was told it’s okay, but it wasn’t okay to talk about what he wanted, to talk about what he [00:37:00] needed. I came from a background basically of liars and cheats, so I didn’t wanna arbiter his life, but what I needed was honesty. I needed truth and transparency, and I needed information upfront. I needed things before they happened.
So if he was gonna go and play with someone and he knew he was gonna go and play with someone, I needed to know, not because I was keeping tabs, but he had been kept tabs on before, right? So that was a rub for a while, but it- so it took a while. When he says that it took a while for him to be comfortable with me, it took him a while to, to trust that I wasn’t really trying to be an arbiter of his behavior.
I was just needing for me what was the safety and comfort of knowing the truth, right? Because when you come from a long line of cheaters, what you have is a hypervigilant re- reality on knowing when people have been intimate, right? So it really messes with my [00:38:00] sense of security to not be told that an intimate relationship exists and for me to be in the presence of it and know in my body that it actual- that it absolutely exists that way.
And so we had this process of we, we would get into these cycles, and I knew because they were matched, right? My need for transparency overlapped with his need to be able to show up and be transparent, and that’s when I… I b- I believe in God. I believe in a power in the universe, and that’s when I felt like we had been brought together for a reason, that our- this was an opportunity for us to each walk through this part of our life and potentially heal from it and come out the other side of it, and that’s exactly what’s happened, right?
He began to trust over time that I wasn’t trying to, control or manipulate him, and he became more, more increasingly honest with me over time so that I could relax and know that I wasn’t having to be hypervigilant and worry about truths that I wasn’t being told. And then eventually, everything [00:39:00] settled into a really nice place where we were both able to heal from these parts of our past
Alonzo banx: Now I understand that you have all taken your knowledge and you now mentor and consult with other people in poly fuels coming into this lifestyle. Is that true?
Cat: Yeah
Alonzo banx: Tell me about that. How, what do you do?
Joshua: So with the work that we do, it’s really about how a person is showing up in relationships. Some people choose poly, some people choose monogamy. Ultimately, what we do is we help people unlearn frameworks or limiting beliefs that they’re projecting onto themselves or in the connections they’re establishing and helping them find the language so that they can really articulate what they’re looking for.
‘Cause it’s like- What I’ve noticed in the work that we’ve done, ’cause I’ve done domination for 15 years, hosting events for about 10 plus. Kat’s been hosting events for longer than that, and she’s done professional domination. Natalie’s been doing m- mistress domination work for about two years now. And what I notice in the [00:40:00] conversations we have with each other or that I have with my clients is that a lot of times people don’t even know what they want. So it’s even hard to put words to that. But the first step is what don’t you want? And that h- really sets the groundwork for the direction for people to understand, what am I looking not only to experience but achieve in relationships? What are goals that I want in relationships? How do I wanna feel? What type of framework do I want? And it’s like we don’t necessarily push people in one direction or another, either poly or monogamy. It’s do you feel safe enough to tell the truth where you’re at regardless of what it is? ‘Cause what I’ve noticed also in poly relationships and people who are looking to open their relationships is they’re looking to fill a void that’s in their current relationship. And it’s for me, that’s not the answer. The answer is w- means haven’t you exhausted in your connection before you look to bring in a third? Because at that point you’re replacing something that’s missing, that you feel is missing that [00:41:00] maybe your partner hasn’t developed their language or their understanding around that. For example, power exchange. People in a relationship wanna open their relationship because they wanna experience dominance or submission and their partner can’t be dominant or submissive because of whatever the frameworks are. Either the wife has been leading the relationship for 15 years and she doesn’t feel like she could submit to her husband who goes to work and comes home and plays video games because he doesn’t embody confidence, So there’s a lot of frameworks more than do, what do I want to experience that’s out there that’s not in here? It’s in that case of the hus- of the wife who’s working and the husband who isn’t so proactive, it’s like what are the conversations that you’re not having at home before you start to pursue it out there? Because I don’t wanna say, “Fine, just leave and open your relationship,” that’s the answer. It’s no, there’s a lot more work that can be done inside the relationship, but that’s the difference between emotional maturity and responsibility and having the hard talks than it is just looking for a quick solution. And a lot of people are looking for fast [00:42:00] solutions and not a deeper connection or understanding their partner
Alonzo banx: That is very well said. Natalie, I’m gonna, I’m gonna start wrapping this up. I got two more questions I wanna ask. One is, Natalie, a lot of younger people looking to step into a world like this, what are the red flags? What are the green flags? When you meet a new couple, what is it that people should watch out for and look out for?
Natalie: Good question. And as Joshua and Cat were talking, I was thinking about my relationship to alignment and why them, I’m learning a lot all the time. And in some ways I feel like I’m through lining because I have Cat, my romantic mentor, and Joshua, who’s helping me understand my relationship to authority in his own very special way within our power dynamic. So I’m… As I said earlier, I’m faced with a lot of mirrors, I’m faced with a lot of questions. And I believe a lot of what we do is not teach, but we provoke, and we provide people with questions, and [00:43:00] they are able to paint their own picture based off of what, how they answer those questions and how much work they put into themselves, right?
So I think the biggest green/red flag is if you, the people who you are with allow you to explore your activation and your triggers in a way in which you are actually processing and working through them. So for me, I’m understanding a lot, or I’m understanding and processing my relationship to intimacy, my relationship to sex, my relationship to my sexuality, sensuality, all of these concepts and ideas. am I able to do so with care, with security, with the sense and the knowing that if I answer these questions and work through my relationships to these concepts in any way, that I’m gonna be accepted no matter what? So I look for people’s responses, for their reactions, and I [00:44:00] look to tease apart the reactions and the reactions from the responses as well.
Because if I end up, and this happens a lot actually, I end up triggering Joshua with my triggers. So then I see him becoming reactive to me being reactive, and I have to identify that, oh, he’s reactive now. He’s not responding. It’s not him, it’s his experience to what I’m doing or what I’m saying or the cons- ah I don’t know if I answered the question, but I do look for reactions versus responses and I would prompt people to be able to start teasing apart their relation, their, the people who they’re in relations to reactions versus responses.
And I would look there to see if there’s a safe container to be able to build a relationship from within
Alonzo banx: I think you answered the question perfectly.
Natalie: Wonderful
Alonzo banx: Cat, to you. You’ve been at this a while. What is the one piece of advice that I didn’t ask you to [00:45:00] give tonight that should be given to people coming into this lifestyle?
Cat: Be true to yourself is what comes up for me, right? Be
Anytime I get into trouble, it’s because I am trying to fill a role or be what I think the other person wants me to be or I’ve lived a lot in survival mode, and survival mode looks a lot like, filling in the blanks for other people, trying to just take care of things.
And what I would say is take the time to know yourself. I think the introspective piece of the work that we do, one of the things I was thinking as Natalie was talking is that, we don’t fix people. We give people the opportunity to fix themselves. We create a container. We give them questions and thoughts and things to look at, and we point in a direction, and then we say, “Now do the work.”
And I think if there’s anything I can say to people is you have to do that for yourself. You have to do the work yourself. It’s… I don’t know any way to be in, [00:46:00] in a healthy relationship without doing that work, right? Someti- sometimes so many people run against their issues, and they’re hard. It’s hard stuff, and the feeling is I just need to change.”
And the one thing that I would say is wherever you go, there you are, right? So if you have a problem in this relationship and you wanna leave, rest assured the universe will happily provide you an opportunity to work on that again in your next relationship. And maybe sometimes you’re willing to take that risk regardless, ’cause you feel like you need to leave where you are right now.
But don’t be confused and think that this issue that you don’t wanna deal with now isn’t gonna turn up in the next relationship later. So my feeling is why not stay here? If the person that you’re with is actually a decent person, and there’s aspects of your relationship that are good and you’re enjoying, why not stay here and work on it now?
M- might as well get it done now.
Alonzo banx: That is some incredibly good advice. Natalie, Kat, Joshua, it’s been an absolute [00:47:00] honor having you guys back on again tonight. Hopefully, we’ll get you back on again in the future. Thank you guys for
Joshua: It’s been a real pleasure.
Cat: It’s a pleasure. Thank you so much
Joshua: having us
Alonzo banx: I’m Alonzo Banks. This has been the Police SoCal podcast. Good night, everybody These are amazing Welcome back to the
Joshua: Welcome back to the “Polly SoCal Podcast.”
Alonzo banx: am
Joshua: I am
Alonzo banx: very excited today. We
Joshua: very excited today. We have the three members
Alonzo banx: Oh, gotcha.
Joshua: That’s a
Alonzo banx: echo.
Joshua: horrible idea. Hang on