In this episode of PolySoCal, the panel explores one of the hardest realities in ethical non monogamy: endings. When relationships become deeply interconnected, breakups can affect far more than just two people. The conversation examines how polyamorous relationships end, how emotional fallout spreads through a polycule, and how communication, maturity, and self awareness can help people navigate painful transitions. Through personal experiences and thoughtful discussion, the group talks about unhealthy dynamics, hierarchy, metamour conflict, and the importance of building strong foundations before adding new partners into a relationship web.

Alonzo Banx, Heather, Cupcake, Noah

[00:00:00] 
Alonzo: Welcome back to the Poly SoCal Podcast. I am Alonzo Banks, and tonight we have Noah and Cookie in the house, and I’m gonna ask a question that, um, they both just agreed might be a little bit controversial. Hi, guys.
Noah: Hey, how’s it going?
Cookie: up?
Alonzo: Okay, so real, real quick, it’s only the three of us in the house tonight. Um, let’s say hello so everyone remembers who you are, and more importantly, your connection to each other, which really kinda amplifies the question I’m gonna ask. Noah, say hi.
Noah: Hey, I’m Noah. I’m partnered with Cookie on the podcast tonight. You also know that I’m partnered with, uh, Cupcake, uh, who is married to another man who has his own partner, and we have kind of a mix of partners/kitchen table situation. So that’s who, who I am.
Alonzo: It’s good to have you tonight. Cookie, we don’t get you on often. I th- I think sending you that list showing you, [00:01:00] you know, that we need you on here more kind of, you know, stirred a little fire there. Welcome.
Cookie: little, yeah, yeah, you– Thank you. Yeah, I feel, uh, adequately encouraged, so I’m back again. Uh, I’m
Alonzo: It’s good to have you. Okay, so the fact that we have you two tonight, and, you know, Cookie, I’ve known you for a, a long time now, um, long before the changes in your lifestyle, really brought up the question, is
Cookie: partner
Alonzo: when was that moment where you realized that you wanted to transition from monogamy to poly?
Cookie: introduced us
Alonzo: What did that decision take? How did you face it? How did you talk to people around you? And I mean, the million questions that people are gonna have about,
Cookie: enough,
Alonzo: “I’m monogamous, and I think I wanna be poly. How do I make that step?” So Cookie, I put you on the, on the spot because like I said, I know you– I’ve known you in your previous life.
Cookie: Oh, [00:02:00] man. Right. So yeah. So, uh, Alonzo met me in my before life, uh, with my, with my ex-husband. and I was with my ex-husband for about 13 years. And then before that I had, guess, a couple somewhat serious but not super serious, uh, relationships that were kind of monogamous in structure as well. Um, and, you know, I think a, a big part of why I started that way is it’s just very much set up as the default. Um, you know, my parents were monogamous. Pretty much everyone in our family circle and all of our friends were also monogamous. It was just, um, the structure that was most familiar, so the first one I sought after.
Uh, but I would say, you know, even before making that firm choice, um You know, every time I would be in a relationship, it felt like at some [00:03:00] point, the whole setup felt limiting. And I think, like, early on in those relationships, um, that I had since they were new and I was just new to relationships in general, I kinda just felt like, “Oh, well, that’s just one of those passing thoughts you have about, you know, of what could be,” and everybody has those. but I, uh… Yeah, after being with my relationship, uh, with my ex-husband for so long, um, and actually kind of having a moment where I broke up with him, and we, and we came back together and tried again, it kind of revalidated that feeling in me that, you know, whoever I would be with next, um, I would like to explore something a bit more experimental, a bit more open. Um, and I would like to, you know, experiment with having more intimate relationships, um, just in my life, uh, because [00:04:00] I to talk deeply with people. I like to get to know people. Um, and a big part of extending that can be, you know, in, in love, um, in sexuality, in friendship. And I feel like, um, you know, it’s, one of those things when you’re in, in a monogamous relationship for a long time, and it wasn’t necessarily an agreement upfront when, when you got into that relationship, but it was just a condition. Um, I found myself kind of just coming back to that thought a lot, and eventually it kind of, uh – and this will, I guess, will be the controversial part. Um, the, the pressures of that kind of led me astray, um, in my, in my existing monogamous relationship. And I, uh, know, I was not faithful, and I was also feeling like I was not in a position to communicate those feelings to my partner and have them received safely. Um, [00:05:00] I felt like, things were already kind of falling apart, and I felt like I was already outgrowing, um, the relationship I was in. I f- I started to kind of acknowledge all the other ways that I felt held back, from, from the things that I wanted to go after in life because I was with a person who really just had different goals than me.
And, um, yeah, I think a lot of those realizations and thoughts kind of led me to, to take the actions of ending that and then beginning a, uh, ethically non-monogamous relationship with Noah, who happened to, around the same time, be kind of going through that same kind of process, it seems. I mean, I won’t entirely speak for him and, you know, we had a lot of our private conversations about that.
But I also feel like, um- it aligned us both on that journey to, to take that together in a, in kind of a beautiful way. And I [00:06:00] As messy as it seemed maybe from the outside to some people, I, it, it does feel more right. Um, I feel more aligned with what I’m interested in doing and more able to speak to my partner now about, um, experimental and new things that I wanna try.
And I don’t feel those pressures, um, anymore about the, the conditions of a, a culturally reinforced relationship anymore, and that part is very freeing me. Um, so yeah, it’s … It There is no one way about it. It, it is messy, to do that kind of conversion and, and you have to know that you’re doing it for you, and there’s gonna be people around you who are unhappy about it, and there might be people you might never talk to again by, by taking action on those things. Um, but y- you just have to decide that you’re gonna value your experience more than, than that, more than their opinions. And, uh, it takes guts. takes a lot of guts to do that. It … And, [00:07:00] and yeah, for, for anyone considering that journey, like I understand. Uh, and I wish I could really offer like some really sound advice, but every situation is kind of its own unique monster to tackle.
Alonzo: But you jumped deep. I mean, you didn’t just go from monogamous to poly. You went from monogamous to a, and fairly vanilla, a BDSM relation that’s poly. So like, you took both plunges at the same time.
Cookie: Did. I … Yeah, right. And I think, I think a big part of that was just, you know, how repressed I really was for so long, like how many interests I had that were left unexplored, and then to finally find someone who kind of aligned with a lot of those interests. Like, I was than prepared to jump in ’cause I, you know, had all that time, all that time to build it up.
Alonzo: So were you looking for both? Did the, did the poly come with the BDSM or BDSM with poly, or you were actively looking for both of [00:08:00] those at once?
Cookie: You know, would say more so I was interested in BDSM first ’cause I feel like the poly was, is honestly so new for me in comparison. Like, I feel like I knew about BDSM a little bit more, before that, maybe for like 10 years or so before that, and was more familiar and interested in that. But again, I had a partner who was just very interested in, in exploring any of that.
Like, that was just a very uncomfortable thing to even ask him to explore, so, and the thought of me exploring that with other people I could tell made him uncomfortable too. So that was just, uh, yeah, one of those things that I would think about, you know, in the fantasy realm a lot, and it never quite died.
And, um, as a, a bit of a
Alonzo: So
Cookie: on that, having that experience somehow. Um, and then, you know, by extension, when you [00:09:00] get into that type of thing, I feel like there is just a very large network of poly people, um, and also crossing over into that I was interested in a lot of art festivals and being around a lot of artists and people who are just generally a bit more eclectic and open.
Like, there’s just this huge overlap, um, of the poly community, and it just, uh, started to naturally filter into the, the spectrum of options available for what a relationship could look like. Um, and yeah, as someone who was kind of repressed in a relationship I wasn’t really happy with, I was really interested in kind of jumping into a few different directions.
Um, didn’t expect to find someone like Cupcake so soon after meeting Doah, um, to explore something like poly. But when we got together, I think we agreed that we were interested in, in, you know, ethically finding ways to keep it kind of open so we could, we could meet and, and play with other people. Um, and she just hap- [00:10:00] e- everything just happened to align just so quickly and so fast, um, uh, that I was able to do that.
Um, and I feel like a lot of it’s luck. I don’t know.
Alonzo: I want to go in two directions with that. Um, first, just to be clear, when you and Noah got together, there was not any other partners in the relationship at the time. both got together with the understanding that you wanted to be poly.
Cookie: Mm-hmm.
Alonzo: Correct? Yes.
Cookie: Correct.
Alonzo: How far before you made the decision leave your other relationship you really start thinking, “I’m poly”?
Or with you, did it start with, “I’m BDSM,” and that left? How– Basically, how long did you live with the decision before you pulled the trigger?
Cookie: feel like I really started to consider it for, like, a year to six months before it actually happened, and it was mostly the BDSM portion, with a [00:11:00] little bit of poly mixed into that because it was just another thing on, on the bucket list that felt like it would never happen in my existing relationship. Um, but yeah, that– it, it feels like about that amount of time. And it’s not that, like, I wasn’t having moments of considering it before that, but this was, like, the amount of time where I– it really started to stick. Like, “No, I think this is something I really wanna pursue.” Like, like, really started to take it seriously, I would say six months to a year.
Alonzo: And if you don’t mind me digging a little bit, what percentage of your choice your previous relationship, 13 years is a good time to be invested,
Cookie: Mm-hmm.
Alonzo: the poly BDSM part? Was it the relationship was on the rocks and that was a contributing factor, or was this a major part of your decision?
Cookie: y- I’d say a little bit of half and half. Like, I feel like when– I don’t wanna speak for [00:12:00] all relationships with this, but when you break up with someone and then you get back together with them, I think there is often an expectation that the person is different now. Um, and oftentimes early on it really does feel like that person is different now, and you are different now.
And it is fascinating to see how even if you’ve changed a lot, there are just a lot of other core things that do not, or they present themselves in new ways and annoy you just the same ways. Um, and, and it kind of, me, validated that this was kind of an in-incompatible relationship. Um, it validated to me that I was with someone who was not helping me be my best, um, in a lot of aspects of my life. um, and those feelings accounted for maybe, like, half of the reason I wanted to leave. And then the other half was the deprivation and repression feelings, which I just feel like especially over 13 years, [00:13:00] if you repeatedly kind of have those thoughts, it builds up. And as you get older, the pressure to, you know, do that with the time you have left, the, the, the urgency to do something about that increases.
And, you know, projecting my life forward, imagining, “Okay, if I stay with this person, I know that all of these thoughts are only gonna, gonna get worse.” Like, I don’t think that there’s another way to alleviate my curiosity about them unless I try to engage with them. And if I’m not with a person who I can safely do that with, then it’s clear that that is a big incompatibility, um, with my life interests.
And, and while it is maybe a little selfish, um, I do think it’s still the right thing to do. And, I’m still glad I did it, but it did, it took a lot of bravery and motivation and time and, uh, kind of like deciding to quit cigarettes or something, just like it, [00:14:00] turkey doing it, and just, uh, not trying to dance around and try to make everybody happy when you leave.
Um, it’s just, uh, not gonna be clean, you know? just not. You, you can’t have beautiful expectations of, uh, you know, ending a thing perfectly. Um,
Alonzo: How long has it been? How long has it been now since you made the jump?
Cookie: what would
Noah: Little over three years
Cookie: Three, about three, a little over three years, yeah.
Alonzo: you remember back to what some of your biggest, um, fears and anguishes were that now realizing those weren’t really justified? I was afraid of X and that happen.
Cookie: my previous relationship,
Alonzo: With, with the transition in general.
Cookie: Oh, sure. Sure. Um, you know, I think I was actually more afraid of [00:15:00] staying in a situation I didn’t wanna be in than taking a chance. Um, I don’t think taking this chance was something that made me fearful. Um, yeah, I think it was scarier to me to have the thought of, “No, like I could be trapped here in a situation I don’t wanna be in forever,” and, and, and try to, to play it off like I chose this and I’m happy in it.
You know? Like that, that sounds like an absolute living nightmare, and I and I’m pretty certain it would’ve been. so yeah, I think my, my biggest fear just would’ve been staying in that discomfort, staying in a place where I just knew it wasn’t right for me.
Alonzo: Were there any pain points that you didn’t see coming? Where after you made the transition, all of a sudden you went, “Ouch, I didn’t expect that.”
Cookie: Um, I mean, I will say, like I don’t feel like I’m necessarily on bad terms with anybody after the fact, but [00:16:00] I definitely feel like I kind of lost some friends, and connections, and that, that always hurts a little bit. Um, and as much as my ex-husband is, I feel like is, is com- incompatible with me that relationship level, like we had other compatibilities that I do miss.
Um, and those, you know, it does hurt. It does hurt to not have that anymore. Um, but uh, I honestly can’t think of a single thing I regret. Uh, even how long it took, I really can’t be that mad at myself for it. It like, yeah, it would’ve been nice to have addressed this sooner or realized it sooner, um, but better late than never definitely rings true for me for that.
So, uh, yeah, I, I really approached this whole thing as a very just, uh, forgiving of myself kind of thing. Um, I’m a fallible human being just like [00:17:00] anybody else, and choosing a relationship that’s not right for me is a completely valid mistake that I think a lot of people do make. And um And that’s okay.
You know? Like, I don’t need to prove to the world that I made the right choice by s- just by staying in it, you know? Just to be like, “Ha,” you know, “I chose right. I told you so. I’m, I’m perfect. I know everything.” You know? ‘Cause, ’cause th- y- that’s just a big act. I’ll still have to feel the weight of, of knowing that I didn’t, so…
Alonzo: Last question, then I’ll get on, get on Noah. We haven’t been asking you much so far How long was the transition from when you, you know, you decided this is going to happen to it happened? this something that you dragged out for weeks or months or days?
Cookie: Yeah, I feel like I, I knew it would happen soon-ish for that six months to a year, and then, like, the time, the plan to [00:18:00] exit was probably two or three months, maybe a little bit less. But yeah, I’d say three months, like, the, the intention was set. Like, “No, I’m going to leave soon, for sure, very soon.” And then, uh, yeah, and then kind of comes just a lot of pre-planning before that, pre-grieving, which is a little unfair for your existing partner, but still something that needs to be done, I think.
Um, and, uh, yeah, as soon as, like, the new year started, that felt like a big refresh point where like, “Okay,” like, “This is a good time to move forward.” And then, yeah, a couple months later it happened. Um, and yeah, I’d say it happened happened, like, within a week. Like, it was a very aggressive, uh, you know, moment.
Like, I moved out within a week just suddenly and was done, and that, then that was [00:19:00] it. D- didn’t look back.
Alonzo: Okay, I’ll come back to that. But Noah,
Cookie: Mm-hmm,
Alonzo: talk about your relationship prior, ’cause you were in a, also a long-term monogamous relationship, right?
Noah: I was, yeah. And I have a lot to say, so I’m gonna try to do my best to organize my thoughts in a way that, uh, makes sense and doesn’t take up hours of time. But, uh, to try to keep a long story short, I was married, uh, for over 17 years. Um, and we had gotten married, uh, very young, um, at least by today’s standards.
We were in our very early 20s. Um, my ex-wife wasn’t even old enough to drink when we got married. Um, and we really didn’t know shit about shit. We had no idea how the world worked, and I think her and I both, uh, but me especially, um, was playing the world by [00:20:00] numbers, right? We were painting by numbers. It was– I graduated high school.
I got a full-time big boy job. I moved out to– Well, before that, I moved out to California. Um, I originally grew up in Minnesota. And, um, I, I, I then said, “Okay, well, what’s next?” So I, I met a girl shortly after I moved to California. Uh, we hit it off Um, I then decided, okay, well, I’ve got a big boy job. I’ve moved states.
I’m an adult now. I guess I’ll ask her to marry me because that’s the next step, right? That’s what you do when you’re an adult. And then I decided the next thing to do then is buy a house and have a kid. So I did those things. And so now I’m in my, you know, mid to late 20s at this point. And I, I realize [00:21:00] that I’m, I’m not happy, um, both in my marriage, which I could talk all day about, but I won’t.
But, um, it wasn’t good really from the start. Um, but I stuck it out, uh, because of my, at the time, Christian values, um, which told me that you stay no matter what. You are a loyal husband, and this is what you do for God and country and whatever else, right? Uh, and I– that was the, the manly thing to do was to basically just suffer in it.
That’s the choice you made, and it’s forever. So that’s what you do. Um, and I honestly felt lost. I, I, I– when I had those things, I had the kid and the house and the wife, um, not such a bad life when you look at it from the outside, but I felt very empty, um, in so many ways. And [00:22:00] ultimately, I just said, “Well, I guess my next goal is die.”
So– and I’m not trying to say that in a, in like a suicidal way, but that was just what I was waiting for. I was just marking time until that happened, I guess. Um, I was in a Groundhog Day life where I came home from work, and in my marriage, I really wasn’t allowed to explore my desires or wants, uh, even hobbies.
Um, so I’d watch reality shows I didn’t care about, um, just to make her happy, and then I’d go to bed, usually angry. And that was kind of my life. It’s just– that was how I felt. And, um, I remember wanting so much more, but it always felt wrong or gross or that I’d be– I should be ashamed of it even though it’s what I desired.
And it was, you know, I, I would meet other people in my [00:23:00] life, uh, who were interesting to me, people who, you know, I wanted a, a stronger relationship with, but I wasn’t allowed to because I was in a monogamous relationship. And for most of my life, I’ll be honest, I’ve, I’ve always thought, uh, people took sex way too seriously in the sense that, uh Not that it shouldn’t be taken seriously to a point, but, um, s- sex is not just an expression of love, it’s an expression of enjoyment and fun.
Um, and I think to a point, within r- some level of responsibility, uh, we shouldn’t pretend that it’s some huge level, some crazy barrier of, uh,
uh… You know what I’m trying to say. That it’s a, like a major deal to have sex, I guess. [00:24:00] Anyway, so I’m going through this relationship for about 17 years, um, and I meet Cookie.
And when I meet Cookie, um, this was another person who I had a connection with. This was another person I felt, uh, a strong connection with almost immediately. And it wasn’t the first time I had felt this kind of connection. Like I said, I’ve felt this before, uh, many times. Um, but I think this was just the moment that we both had needed when we met each other.
It was the right timing. When we were both felt maybe a little desperate in our relationships, um, a little lost, and feeling maybe unloved in our relationships. Um, [00:25:00] and we talked a lot. We talked a lot. And at first it was relatively innocent. Um, and then it became not, to be honest. And people can make whatever opinions they want on that.
But, um, uh, we really learned a lot about each other, and we had a lot of commonalities in how we were living our life, a lot of parallels. Um, and our feelings around sex and non-monogamy and BDSM, um, were very much aligned. Um, she had, you know, shared some desires and fantasies with me, and I’ll be honest, a lot of that was not new per se in the idea of, but it was new in the sense that that can happen.
That’s a real thing that people do. I had, uh, basically been living my life with the idea that that was only something that happened in movies or [00:26:00] TV or, you know, and always ended in disaster Right? You would invite someone else into your bedroom or, you know, you would have a relationship outside your home, even if it was consensual, and it would, um, always end up in disaster.
That’s basically how it’s portrayed in Hollywood or in, in culture. And so I had, I had really been of the belief that that was not a real thing that ha- really happened on a regular basis, that it was an extremely rare thing and certainly nothing that ever really worked out. Um, but Cookie had kind of opened that world up to me because she was more aware of it than I was, and that allowed me to do a little bit of research and see some things and become part of, you know, some internet communities, et cetera, that really opened my eyes to a lot of, uh, a lot of things.
And, um, [00:27:00] that was a huge eye-opening moment for me when, when I realized that the way that I was living my life, which again was a paint by numbers, it was what I was told to do. It was the, this is what you do when you become an adult. You get a job, you have kids, you buy a house, get married. That’s the plan.
Um, and even if it didn’t feel right, that was what you were supposed to do. And then I learned that you don’t have to do that, and that was such a, a relief in so many ways. I suddenly felt like I had options.
And then on top of that, I had met someone who felt perfect to explore those options with.
Alonzo: So you jumped from [00:28:00] vanilla monogamy to BDSM polyamory?
Noah: Yeah, I did. I did. And I had had all of those desires over the years, but I had really pushed them down or ignored them or pretended they didn’t exist or only explored them in porn or what have you, right? Um, it wasn’t something that I had taken seriously. And, uh, yeah, when, uh, Cookie had ex- ex- expressed those desires, to suddenly have someone to explore that with was, um, a whole new world just opened up to me.
Um, and we didn’t act on those for quite some time. It was a lot of talk, mostly getting to know each other and exploring our own desires, um, I’d say for many, many, many months of just talking, just chatting online basically is what it was. [00:29:00] Um- And we got to know each other so well in that time. Um, and then, yeah, I, I, I– we eventually got to a point where we couldn’t take it anymore, and we, we began cheating on our partners to keep it simple.
Um, and that was basically when I had decided that I was done with my marriage. And I had told Cookie at the time, “Whether or not you’re going to leave your husband, I’m going to be leaving my wife.” And I had basically set a time of the new year for my own personal reasons, Christmas, the child, yada, yada, yada, right?
Um, it didn’t quite work out that way, um, but that was my plan. And I had told Cookie, I was like, “Listen, I’m, I’m, I’m leaving my wife. You don’t have to make [00:30:00] any choices that you don’t want to make. Um, but this is a choice I’m going to make regardless of your choice. Um, and you’re welcome to come with me, but this is where it’s going.”
And I did make that choice before she had made hers. I moved out, and I, you know, told her, “I’ll make you a key. Here’s my new place. You’re welcome to move in.” Um, and she made her choice then. And that was– that’s basically the, the gist. That’s the gist.
Alonzo: Well, it sounds like you weren’t actively out looking for the change. The change found you
Noah: The change found me, absolutely. And I’ve, I’ve, I’ve, in these last few years, not been happier in my life ever. This is the happiest I’ve ever been. Um, Cookie is the best among us. I’d say that for all humanity, she’s the best among us. [00:31:00] Um, and, a-a-and having her as my partner and, um, having her as my nesting partner, um, has been the best experience of my life, hands down.
And I do not regret for a second, uh, the choices that I made. Um, I would do it all again.
Alonzo: You know, one of the things that you see over and over with marriages, and it was true with mine too, when we get married very young, we don’t know ourselves yet. And as, as we get older and we start discovering who we are, we can realize that we made commitments to things that weren’t right for us, and it’s, it’s always painful. But the step from one monogamous relationship to another confusing enough. from a monogamous relationship into a poly relationship, that’s where things get [00:32:00] complicated. Now, when you were thinking about stepping out, I’m gonna ask you the same question I asked Cookie, and I, I do this for the, the audience out there. What fears did you have that you then found later were unfounded? Things that you were afraid you would face that you didn’t? And inversely, what things should you have been afraid of that you didn’t know you should have been because they came back and bit you in the butt?
Noah: Yeah. I think, uh, one is, and Cookie might laugh at me when I say this, but the financial cost. I remember telling her, you know, we were married for a long time. In the state of California, you’re married over 10 years, you owe alimony for the rest of your life. And my ex-wife, uh, while she did work, did not make as much m- money as I did, and so I am therefore responsible for the rest of my life to [00:33:00] pay for her to have an equal, um, lifestyle to what she had while we were married.
Um, and that was very scary for me because, uh, I remember telling her, “I’m gonna have just a real sad dad apartment,” is what I called it, right? It’s probably gonna– It’s gonna be a studio or a one bedroom. I’ll be sleeping on the couch so my kid can have the, the other bedroom when he’s with me, assuming I get any custody.
That was the other fear, right? That I might not have any custody of my child. Um, and, uh, yeah, I was afraid that I would be absolutely financially ruined, potentially for the rest of my life. And while it was nowhere close to free, and it has cost me a lot of money, it wasn’t that bad. And there is, um, a light at the end of the tunnel.
I see, you know, where I can recover. Um, you know, after three years, I’m pretty much outside of the [00:34:00] worst of it, and, um, I, I imagine in a few more years I’ll be, uh, back to where I was prior to all of this. So five or six years, I guess, after a 17-year marriage doesn’t really feel, um, like that big of a sacrifice in the end of things.
Um, but again, not free. It definitely cost me maybe about $1,000, right? To, to handle all of this, but it was, uh, absolutely worth it. I’d pay it twice over to do this again. So, uh, that was the, the biggest fear. The other one would be, again, there’s a child involved. I do have a, a teenage son, um, who at the time was a preteen.
Um, which is a very, you know, uh, delicate age for your child and to go through a [00:35:00] divorce, which he’s not the first one. I, in fact, had my parents divorce each other twice while I was growing up, once when I was much younger and once when I was about his age. Um, I had some comfort in that knowing– having been through it myself, knowing that he’d be fine ultimately.
And the way that he would be fine was by doing my best to cooperate with my ex-wife on dealing with the child situation. Um, and the, the other fear, and some of it came true and some of it didn’t, is your relationships with other people, friendships, uh, family, et cetera. Um, and I did lose one or two friends, um, one of which was actually very unexpected.
Uh, my best friend who, uh, didn’t really seem to have really much relationship with my ex-wife at all, and who seemingly had taken… not taken my side, [00:36:00] but had been behind me, happy for my transition, happy that I’m happy, uh, suddenly just changed and kind of ghosted me. Um, and while he never said that’s what it was about, I feel like that’s what it was about, was his opinion of me changed.
So there is a real risk of, of losing relationships, and that is an unfortunate part. But again, um, I’d do it again, even knowing that to be true. Um, I still have friends. I’ve made new friends since. My, um, my group has grown. Alonzo, you’re a part of that, right? Um, and so life continues to go on. And so I think that’s something that we need to remember is, uh, you’re ending something major, especially if you’ve been doing it for so very long.
Um, but [00:37:00] it’s not the end of everything. You’re creating something new. It’s a new beginning. And if you’re doing things right in poly, it’s a new beginning where you’re meeting new people and starting new relationships, sometimes romantic, sometimes just friendships. Um, but you’re being introduced to a new community and many new people, um, which has its own beauty.
Alonzo: We’ve all watched, um, of ours go through divorces, monogamous marriages breaking up How would you compare yourself that for either one of you? I mean, do you have the comparison with your going from monogamy to poly and ending a monogamous relationship to what most people go through just monogamy to monogamy?
Do you have any view on how that looks?
Noah: Uh, me personally, uh, I, I do in the sense [00:38:00] that I– it was critical to start a new relationship as poly with someone who was open to poly. Neither one of us, uh, tried to drag our previous partners, previous marriages into poly relationships. Neither one of us made that ultimatum, um, because I think neither one of us feel that’s fair, right?
Monogamy isn’t wrong. I don’t think monogamy is wrong. It’s a choice, just like being poly is a choice, right?
Alonzo: It’s a choice.
Noah: Right. Um, and there are people who are poly who choose to be monogamous after time, and there are, you know, in rarer instances, people who are monogamous who decide to be poly over time.
Um, however, both partners must be in it [00:39:00] and ready to do it. You cannot drag a partner into it, and I think that is a critical realization and something that, uh, with Cookie and I, we both knew that being poly, um, would at the very least be, uh, a consideration for our new relationship, if not a guaranteed, uh, part of it.
Um, and along with BDSM. That was also part of it. Um, and, and I, and I think that’s critical. You must have that understanding from the get-go. Um, converting someone into this lifestyle I think is the wrong way to go. It’s only gonna end in heartache and pain, um, for both of you, but especially the person that you’re trying to drag through into your desires.
Cookie: Mm-hmm.
Alonzo: Okay, what do you think about that?[00:40:00] 
Cookie: agree. I agree with Noah, and then I would also add, you know, it’s not just about finding that partner who is
Noah: Stop.
Cookie: with you in terms of, um, you know, s- uh, sexual and relationship goals and interests, but also finding a partner that you able to be vulnerable with and that you know that you can clearly communicate with and you’re confident that you, um- This person understands you.
Um, because especially when you enter the, the poly realm of things, the complexity that’s added and the things that you need to talk about and the empathy required is gonna require radical honesty from both of you to really do that right, um, and to really honor feelings on things and to allow the possibility of someone to change their mind about anything at any [00:41:00] time and, and be, be able and willing to that, um, to the other person.
Uh, and I feel like when you have those initial incompatibilities, you kind of build up, um, a sense of self that’s false. You build up a lot of secrecy. You build up a lot of shame, and starting a relationship with someone where that is most certainly not on the table anymore, is kind of like an entirely new context.
You get to be yourself. It turns into a journey of exploration together, of honest exploration together, and you get to, you know, talk about what happens together without worrying that, that someone’s gonna be upset about it ’cause, ’cause you tried to sell them on monogamy or poly ahead of time or because, you know, um, you just wanted to, to play around with something different, um, after you’ve been in a specific kind of dynamic for so long.
[00:42:00] It’s, it’s risky to do that and, and as Noah said, it’s, it’s unfair when you’re with a partner who didn’t come to that same place as you and maybe instead just is in a, a people-pleasing point of view where they’re like, “Well, I guess I’ll try it ’cause you’re interested in it.” That’s a, that’s a dangerous place to be.
Um, it’s gonna cause a lot of friction. Like, really in those moments that partner should be expressing to you that they’re uncomfortable with that and, and that incompatibility should be recognized and talked about. And if it cannot be, you know, rectified, uh, in a cooperative manner, then, um, you know, you have to both decide if that is important enough to you that, that, that is a genuine incompatibility of the relationship and maybe it is better, um, to leave in it. it’s, it’s tricky. It’s tricky but, uh, yeah, I very much agree with Noah. Like, this lifestyle is noth- it’s not to be sold to a partner. It, it… You should find a partner who’s already interested in it, who’s already on that same page [00:43:00] and, uh, yeah, with nothing to peddle. Just, just, you know.
Alonzo: So let me ask you both, let me ask you both a final question. Let me cut you off, ’cause you– I’m gonna have you answer this a different way. I’m gonna ask you both the same question, okay? A very, very dear friend comes up to you and says, “I’m miserable in my marriage. I’m miserable in the monogamous relationship I’m in. I don’t hate my spouse. I love them, but it doesn’t work for me anymore, and I really want to move into a poly lifestyle.” What do we do? Noah?
Noah: Sure.
Alonzo: What, what do I do?
Noah: w-well, uh, so I think you need to address this with two stages. One is you’re miserable in your marriage. Is it because you want to be poly, or is it because you’re miserable in your marriage for a bunch of [00:44:00] other reasons? Um, why do you want to be poly? Now, if we forget about the poly just for a second, if it’s just a bunch of marriage problems, maybe you should try to work on that.
I tried. Didn’t work out. I do think everybody should try to make their marriage work if it’s something that they desire to do. But if you are truly unhappy, um, life is finite. You’re only here once. It only lasts for a little bit of time. Um, and while we like to pretend that marriage is some sort of, you know, infinite contract that never ends, um, it’s just not true.
So if you are truly unhappy and truly ready to move on, then it is only fair for you to make that known to your marriage partner, your spouse, um, and end things. [00:45:00] And if you would like to be, uh, poly, then you should enter into the poly community. Poly SoCal is a great place to start. Um, and, you know, there’s plenty of internet resources out there.
Just start googling around. You’ll find all sorts of information. Um, and you can try to enter the poly community. There are dating apps out there specifically for, for poly. Um, and that’s what I would recommend to do after you’ve ended your marriage. Obviously, that’s not the way that I necessarily went about things.
I’m not saying what I did was perfect. However, um, if I’m going to give someone advice, that’s the cleanest way.
Alonzo: Yeah, well, frequently in life it’s don’t do it the way I did it ’cause it wasn’t quite the best, so Cookie, what about you? friend comes up to you, looking for your words of wisdom. What do you tell them?[00:46:00] 
Cookie: Um, yeah, you know, and it’s, uh It’s funny because after having done this, I have previously had, um, a very close friend kind of give me a call she had experienced, you know, meeting someone at y- a work outing, and she, you know, started to experience some of those thoughts, some of those what if thoughts, right?
That you Sometimes all it takes is just meeting a person, and it will completely just interrupt your whole, uh, internal world, and you’ll, you’ll re- really start to entertain things, that either you repressed or just didn’t even know about. Um, and it can really send you into a, uh, a mental spiral, and I think there’s, there’s a lot to process with those feelings of I’m not
I don’t think I’m in the right place. Um, and I, I agree with Noah, like seeking some support from a therapist both in, you know, either trying to make your marriage work if you, if you do feel like there’s a chance and you, you just [00:47:00] feel like there’s some struggles that feel workable. maybe it’s worth it.
Uh, um, I know Alonzo told me, you know, “Don’t throw the baby out with the bathwater,” you know? Like, um, you had given me e- some advice. Um, like giving advice is the best that I could offer. I, I am not there to give anyone an instructional of how to do it, what to do, the best approach for them. Um, in addition to going to therapy for the relationship, I think going to therapy for the self is also just as important. exploring like, yeah, like is this about, the fact that you just want poly? Um, or, or is there more to it? Like, what, what are you repressing? And getting to the bottom of, of, um, your struggles that led to the, the, the breakdown that you’re currently experiencing in the relationship is, is important for you to know, um, and take with you either when you go on to repair your existing [00:48:00] relationship or when you go on to have other relationships because, um- It’s not like all of your life struggles just go away when you enter a new relationship format. So it’s, um, I think it’s important, uh, as anyone will tell you, if you end any relationship, “Hey, you should take a break. You should take some time.” Um, it, it is the responsible thing to do to just kind of recenter yourself, really get a good idea of what, what are your goals, what have you been missing, what’s been bothering you. you know, uh, who are the, the people in your life who maybe brought you to question this, if there’s any? Or, you know, who are the people around you who are maybe making you feel really guilty about leaving this relationship? And, you know, ask yourself, like, “Are there other people complicating this for me?”
Like, “Am I really making the decision based on what I want?” I think those are all really important questions to ask. Um, I think this is a really big internal [00:49:00] experience and internal exploration that you through, especially switching from a full relationship format of monogamy to polyamory. Um, and I think you really must…
You must know yourself well to do this smoothly and successfully to give yourself the best chance of this working out. and then, yeah, luckily, we, we live in a world now where there seems to be a lot of resources to kind of help you connect to communities and other people who have done this. and I, I love that there are therapists who specialize in, in poly things or just non-traditional relationships that you can seek out and really get, like, a, a specific perspective, uh, from someone who’s really seen a lot of this.
And I think, um, there’s a lot of ways you can build your confidence around that decision, even if you know nobody in your life who’s done this. Um, honestly, like, I was kind of in that place. Like, it’s not like I knew anybody who was poly who was close to me or ever [00:50:00] made that choice. Like, I was really the only one.
Um, in making this choice, like, it’s not really like I announced it to the world, like a big coming out experience either. I think there’s still a lot of people in my life who probably don’t even know that I, that I did this. Um, and I’m also okay with that too. ’cause again, I’m not in this for the approval of everyone else.
I’m, I’m in this for my own approval and, you know, my happiness and, and where I want to go with this. and if it pleases other people around me, that’s great, but that can’t be, uh, the great deciding factor when it’s, when it’s about my life, you know?
Alonzo: Very well said. And we have a number of those experts on our show, so to some of ours and talk to some of the, some of the people that we talk to. We got some good ones coming up. Guys, when I, you know, thought about having you two on tonight, this was obviously the topic was right. I thank you guys for, for going deep and as always being, um, very candid about your past and your [00:51:00] experiences.
You, you’re awesome. Any last thoughts before we call this one a wrap for tonight? Noah, Cookie, you’re awesome. Anything we got– we need to say that we didn’t?
Noah: The only thing I would say is, um, you know, Cookie had mentioned therapy. Um, couples therapy, if you are in a marriage that you are trying to fix, I think is a great place to start. Um, but I don’t think I would have made the choices that I made. And again, these were choices that I feel in my life were extremely positive.
As hard as they were to make, as hard as they were to rip the Band-Aid off, personal one-on-one therapy with my own therapist, um, was critical in making this choice. They were on my side. They helped me process a lot of my feelings, um, and that was huge for me. And I think we now live in a world where therapy is much more accessible and understood and [00:52:00] accepted.
And I think, uh, everyone who is struggling even a little bit, maybe if even if you’re not, should consider therapy at least for a little while to help process some things. And especially if you’re going something like this, um, it can be exactly what you need to make the leap that you’re too afraid to make.
Alonzo: Excellent advice. Cookie, any last words?
Cookie: Yeah, you know, at the end of the day, it, it really comes down to you and what you want and respect for your time and your goals and your life. And, um, you know, in addition to all of those therapy resources out there, i-in the moments that you’re actually undergoing a big process like leaving someone, it’s really nice to just have some good friends around, really lean on your support system. people that you trust, I think will, will help you not feel so [00:53:00] alone. Um, it’s really hard to, to again, build up that, that confidence and that bravery to take that step. it’s really easy to have ideas and thoughts about leaving someone or leaving a job even, or moving to a new place. Um, it’s a, it’s a big change it is scary.
Um, and it is tempting to try to convince yourself, tell yourself stories about why you should keep doing what you don’t like doing just ’cause it’s not that bad or just ’cause, oh, well maybe things will change or, um, you know, maybe your mom really likes this person or there’s some familiar pressure.
There’s a kid and you don’t wanna disappoint them. Like you, um… It’s, it’s really important to, yeah, be in touch with yourself, be in touch with your friends. Don’t isolate yourself. don’t, uh… Yeah, and don’t be too rash, you know. [00:54:00] Just really, um It’s important to, to think it out. Anything can happen really fast, um, but you, you don’t wanna h- regret something big that you decide to do.
So it’s that set yourself up for success and, and, and do it, you know?
Alonzo: And I think on that note, we will end tonight’s call. Noah, Cookie, it’s been awesome having you on yet again. Cookie, we hope we get you back a lot. Gotta get them stats up, get up into some of the, some of the high views.
Cookie: can’t be the bottom bottom, you know?
Alonzo: I am Alonzo Banks. This has been the “Polysocial” podcast. Good night, everybody.