In Episode 59 of the PolySoCal Podcast, Alonzo Banx sits down with Michael and Bev for an unusually honest look at a poly relationship that has worked for fourteen years precisely because the two people in it are not trying to be the same. Michael came into the relationship already deeply non-monogamous and committed to living openly and honestly. Bev discovered later in life that monogamy did not fit her either, and that her own nature and attraction to a partner who is sexually free were genuine parts of who she was. That did not mean jealousy, fear, or insecurity disappeared. Bev talks openly about learning to sit with those feelings, care for herself, and eventually become more comfortable in her own skin, while Michael describes learning how to give those feelings room without abandoning who he is. Their story is not a formula for everyone. It is a clear example of two very different people whose differences fit.

PolySoCal – 059 – Michael and Bev, Making Poly Work
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[00:00:00] 

Alonzo banx: Welcome back to the Poly SoCal Podcast. I am still Alonzo Banks, and tonight we have we have Michael, and for the first time, we have Bev. And we’re gonna talk about how to make poly work as a couple. With that, and you know what? I’m gonna go to Bev first. Bev, say hi, tell us who you are

Bev: Hi, Alonzo. Thanks for having me. My name is Bev, and I happen to be Michael’s partner, and we’ve been together for 14 years. So I’ve been in the poly lifestyle for 14 years, and I’m grateful to be here to talk about my experiences

Alonzo banx: Fantastic. Thank you. I know we’ve been trying to get you on the show for a while. Absolutely thrilled to have you here tonight. Michael, back

Michael: Thank you for having me back. It’s good, and it’s great to have Bev on here. I’ve referenced her without using her name several times in the times that we’ve been [00:01:00] in this. And and I’ve been doing lifestyle for longer than doing lifestyle longer than than Bev and I have been together.

And I consider myself probably, you can get caught in definitions, but I probably call myself a relationship anarchist as much as poly

Alonzo banx: So let’s dive into that a little bit tonight.

Michael: Okay

Alonzo banx: explain your version of what a, a relationship anarchist is. What does that mean to you?

Michael: What it means to me is that w- I value all intimate relationships with people, and it’s not weighed in by making, like having hierarchy or making one more important than other ones. I treat them all as, as intimate connections, and it’s also not measured based on whether it’s a sexual relationship or not.

It’s focused on connecting and intimacy with people

Alonzo banx: Bev, what would you classify your relationship as? Are you poly? Are you [00:02:00] ENM? Are you swingers? How would you classify the relationship

Bev: I guess I would classify it as poly. I honestly don’t think so much in the terms of labels like that. It’s just our relationship has many other relationships as part of it. So I guess poly is probably the best descriptor that I know

Alonzo banx: And you both have relationships with other partners

Bev: Yes, although Michael has many more than I do. Many more. I, we are not equivalent in that

Means. But I I have actually part of… When I was thinking about the question you posed for this show Part of it has led to me becoming so comfortable with myself that I enjoy spending time more often by myself than with other people.

So I [00:03:00] am… A- and I think that muscle developed over time, being in a relationship with someone. Michael lives to connect. He lives for sex. He lives to, just, connection is his true love, but let’s face it he loves a lot of sex, too. But in that, I have gotten to spend a lot of time with myself, and it’s really built a muscle in me where I’m just, I enjoy my own company, honestly. So I do spend a lot more time alone

Alonzo banx: Now Bev, you said something in your introduction. You said, “We’ve been together 14 years, and I’ve been poly 14 years.” Which means this was a whole new relationship dynamic. Okay, you gotta bring me through that, because how do you go from not being in poly to jumping into your first poly relationship? Michael’s been on our show a few times, and we understand what you’re saying about [00:04:00] he’s a very active man. So that you jumped right into the deep end of the pool

Bev: I did. I did. And yeah, initially, man, there were some very challenging experiences and to walk through for me. had to learn to really sit with a lot of discomfort and okay with the feelings that came up for me early on, when he would go out on dates and I’m alone and processing things like jealousy and, feeling left behind and feeling not important.

Like, all these emotions would come up for me and yeah, sitting through that early on was something I’m super grateful for today and something that felt really hard [00:05:00] early on

Alonzo banx: Take me through this because you weren’t actively looking to be poly dating other people. I’m putting words into your mouth,

Bev: Let me get that clearer. I left a marriage and I discovered at the end of that marriage, I ha- I had c- to come to terms with my own sexuality and that was that I was submissive and, And in that awareness, which came to me late, I was 50 years old at that time, but in that awareness and acceptance of that part of myself, ’cause I had hidden it so deep down.

I had shame around it and I didn’t feel okay about myself because I had these submissh- submissive nature to myself. But when I saw it and put it out in the open, I realized wasn’t designed for monogamy. I was more [00:06:00] attracted What turned me on the most was a man that I was close to having sex with somebody else. That was a huge turn-on for me. And so I knew like I, I wanted to be part of at least a threesome most of the time. But I kn- I knew that monogamy itself was no longer the right thing for me. And the other thing was I came to a place where it’s like, I don’t care if I’m never in another relationship, I’m gonna love myself for who I am. And so I accepted the submissi- submission and, or the submissive aspect of myself, and that made me realize too, I had to be extremely selective who I would spend time with and who I would open that up to. So I think some people misunderstand submissiveness. Probably not a lot of people on, that listen to this would, but it actually gave me agency to own that, [00:07:00] and also made me realize just how careful and selective I needed to be in choosing partners. I needed to have somebody I could trust. I knew at that point, I needed a man that knew who he was and knew his own sexuality. strangely enough, on the first time Michael and I reconnected after not seeing each other for 25 years, in our first discussion, he said to me he said Monogamy is abhorrently unnatural for men something of that nature, right? And I was like, “Oh, thank you for saying that.” It made me feel like I could trust him, right? The fact that he could say that to me because I had been in relationships prior where they were monogamous, but there were things going on the side that weren’t being talked about, but that were being uncovered.

[00:08:00] And so I didn’t feel safe. I didn’t feel like I could trust. when Michael said that, I felt man I would rather… I- to me, it’s more important to be with somebody that’s honest about who he is. And there’s another thing he said that really Called me to trust him, and that was he insisted on living his life being true to himself, true to his in- following his intuition without any, like permission or any, know he was going to follow that. And that made me feel safe. I’m like, “Oh man, I can trust you.” And that’s where our relationship started. So the fact that we went straight into like something he had been living for at least 10 years longer than me was, I was ready. I was all in. “Let’s go.” But that didn’t change how hard it actually was when the rubber met the road and I was sitting home alone and he’s going out on dates, and he’s in NRE, and he’s going through all of these things.

[00:09:00] Jealousy galore. How do I take care of myself in this? All of that. it started with me doing things like, “Okay, he’s out on a date. How do I, what do I do to take care of myself here?” And I specifically chose to spend time by myself because I didn’t wanna be with friends ’cause I knew I wasn’t gonna be present to them because I was so processing the emotions and feelings I had around him being gone and being sp- spending time with other people and being more excited about that. so I would do things like take myself out to dinner. I look I’m like, “Self-care. What can I do for self-care?” So I would take myself to dinner. I would go to a movie. I would go spend money sometimes I’d be like, “Let’s shop. Let’s go treat myself to something I’ve really wanted,” right? That I maybe wouldn’t purchase or, but now I’m going to ’cause I feel like I’ve given myself the okay. I did things like that [00:10:00] early on to kinda get myself those times. And did I just talk too much?

Alonzo banx: Oh, that was fantastic. So this was right at the onset of the relationship. This is like

Bev: early on.

Alonzo banx: very early on

Bev: Very early on. ‘Cause he’s active immediately. He was active before coming into the relationship with me, so he already had a lot of existing relationships, and then there were new ones that hit the scene pretty quickly as well

Alonzo banx: Okay. So Michael, 25 years, then we reconnected. So how did you know each other 25 years prior?

Michael: We met when we were 22 years old. And my- she wasn’t my son’s mother at the time, but my son’s mother was Bev’s best friend and roommate. So we met through me dating my son’s mother. And so we got close and became friends, and we had chemistry with each other, which back then at that [00:11:00] age and not, you know, that became an issue.

And and then we just lost touch for a long time, and then she f- Bev found me on Facebook

Alonzo banx: Ah, the old Facebook connection

Michael: Yeah, yeah.

Bev: Yeah,

Michael: Especially 14 years ago, it was even more prevalent than now

Alonzo banx: Oh, yeah. Okay, so at what point did you guys decide, “Hey, you should be my primary”? I take it that’s a, an active decision that was made

Bev: Not really. It was just from that first conversation we had when we reconnected and had that coffee, there just was never a day that passed that we didn’t connect, whether w- was talking on the phone or seeing each other or spending time together. We just stayed connected, and that led to more and more time staying in the same location and sleeping together and spending the [00:12:00] night together and it just naturally evolved. But we just have never had a day since then that we didn’t talk. We have a lot of We’re deeply connected

Alonzo banx: So Michael, radical honesty. This was your, you met her and on day one said, ” This

Michael: E,

Alonzo banx: I am. This is what I want.

Michael: yeah

Alonzo banx: I connected, but here’s the ground rules.”

Michael: Yeah, and that, and it was more just a statement of who I am in doing that ’cause I had done w- I had tried this. I’m f- I’m fundamentally not monogamous, and I figured that out k- back in 1997. ’96, ’97. And I tried … I didn’t really fully accept that, and so I used to do this thing where I would

Where before I would start dating someone, I’d say, “Hey, I, I’m…” The, we didn’t have the, I don’t remember the term back then of ethical non-monogamy, but it was like that was where I was coming [00:13:00] from. And if somebody wasn’t open to it, I wouldn’t, wouldn’t move forward with that. But then back then what I would do is just try to ease into it.

It’s like I just want you to know that’s who I am,” and then we would start a relationship and start dating in all the normal ways and go through that. And then when I would try to open the door, it consistently would be like I thought it was okay with it, but now I’m in love with you, and I can’t.

It’s just too hard.” And so it I’ve very much had a psychic shift about 10 years before I met Bev where I’m like I’m not gonna play around with it. I’m just gonna be this. It’s all in.” First time we meet, I just laid it on the table. And I don’t spend a bunch of time… we were either at parties or having, like Bev said, me doing things w- right away because that’s another thing I’d learned.

It’s like, if you say you can do it let’s find out because it’s like waiting six [00:14:00] months or a year is not gonna make it any easier, so let’s just jump in. So yeah, as a matter of fact it’s you call it radical honesty, which I appreciate you calling that. Before I got to that point, especially before I was honest about non-monogamy I lied all the time.

And so that was, like, my big epiphany was I’m a liar and it’s ruining my life. And so I flipped it to the other way of just very open from the beginning.

Alonzo banx: I have been completely fascinated by the fact that you went from zero to Michael in one step. I wish I could get inside your head the conversations you had to have with yourself over, “I can do this.” That, that’s a big leap

Bev: Was, this was definitely diving into the deep end of the pool, and I’m so grateful for it now. And it did feel big, and I… Early in those days, I thought I was learning how to live [00:15:00] with, being with someone else. But in actuality, what’s truly happened is that I have learned to live how to be okay with myself. And I, I truly my time with myself now, and I don’t think I would be the person that I am today. I definitely would not be, had we not, had this journey not happened. And right now, I am somebody that feels really comfortable in my skin and just, just okay with who I am and I…

and at peace a lot of ways. That’s not to say I don’t have all this, the stuff happen where I’m stressed out about what I said or did, but, yeah. I’m feel super grateful for the journey

Alonzo banx: I don’t always dig, and I’ve got to just a little bit here because the way you keep talking about being with yourself. Do you have other partners?

Bev: I have had other partners since Michael and I have been together. Mostly [00:16:00] I’ve sought out doms because while Michael is a truly dominant m- man, he’s not a dom, right? And so I have had other partners like that, And I, it, I am totally open to new relationships, As I said earlier, I’m super selective.

I I think when you’re submissive like I am, and you’re willing to turn over so much, and expose so much of your psychology and your experiences and all of that stuff, you have to be very careful and selective about who you choose to spend your time with and who you open up to. I’ve had some, but it’s not even close to where Michael lives. Not even… we’re in totally different realms. So

Alonzo banx: So Michael, I, I ask this question, I don’t know if you’re gonna have a a, a response. What is it that you know now [00:17:00] you wish you had known 14 years ago? Would you have done anything different?

Michael: I don’t think so. I… Honestly, the thing was that I learned from countless times and years of things that didn’t work, that by the time Bev and I connected, reconnected I, I had a, I, I had a really good sense of what doesn’t work, and I p- I would say that’s probably the, the main thing.

It’s like I know this doesn’t work, so I’m not gonna do that. Even though it’s hard, even though I have feelings with Bev that is unlike any expe- Like, I got to a place where I was very comfortable with the amount of relationships I was having, what I was doing, the life I was living, where I didn’t see why you would live with somebody or do…

I wasn’t, it wasn’t… Not only was I not looking for it, I didn’t even see why you would, and it was because of the organic nature of how [00:18:00] Bev and I connected that led to that and led to us being where we’re at. So I just feel like I’ve just been going about being me, and then this has unfolded in the way that it has.

We never had a conversation about, “Let’s define the relationship. You’re now my primary.” And we own houses together. We’re legally married a- and we did that for other reasons because the, to me, the relationship didn’t change at all based on the marriage thing. That’s more of a, a thing that had other practical applications to it.

And sure, I’ve… I guess probably the biggest thing is I would have been maybe a little more patient and better about… Although I feel like we’ve done it really well. We’ve never had a fight. We don’t raise our voice at each other. It’s not how we communicate. And so it’s not like I’ve had something that feels really rough that I wish I would have been mean, ’cause I haven’t [00:19:00] been, I don’t feel.

You can ask her. Maybe just a little more confidence in knowing how to hold space and being able to listen ’cause when d- when it comes up, especially throwing her in the deep end, there were times that it was like it was super freaky for her, and it’s like to me the balance is let the feelings be okay, not try to fix them, not try to justify my position.

Just hear it and allow it, and then don’t let that alter me changing my behavior to try to fix the emotion. So I… I- if anything, I feel like where we’re at is, from the time that we got together, has been based on 25, 30 years of me doing it wrong before we got together

Alonzo banx: I think that works for most of us. The reason that as you get older, you learn from a lot of life’s mistakes how to do things right.

Michael: Yep

Alonzo banx: Bev, I’m gonna put that same question to you though. have you learned or what did you wish you had known 14 years ago?

Bev: [00:20:00] Oh, that’s a hard question.

What I know now that would have helped me immensely then, I guess is probably just reassurance of it’s all gonna be okay. You’re gonna, you’re gonna walk through this and it’s all gonna be fine. Michael was really good at holding creating a safe place for me to thrash sometimes, honestly, which happened.

I would be upset and talk to him about it. I did- I think I was good about not, like, attacking or projecting. Like I owned my feelings of insecurity and jealousy and how hard it was. But he created a space that allowed me to express it and honestly, Alonzo, by him not changing his behavior, by him staying the course, by him staying true to himself, felt safer. felt I could trust him. I f- knew this man [00:21:00] wasn’t gonna change the course of action because of me having h- hard feelings. And that made it safe to have those hard feelings with him. Make sense?

Alonzo banx: Absolutely.

Bev: Yeah. Yeah. So super grateful that he did hold his center and hold his core, and it has… Yeah. And I feel like I am a stronger person for it as well

Alonzo banx: Yeah, I think there’s a, a balance in there that we have to really get clear, is you’re talking about how it gave you strength when Michael held his course, you’re also talking about how Michael gave you room to feel your emotions. So it wasn’t a harsh, ugly thing. It was a stable, is how it is, with a loving compassion behind it. I’m putting words in your mouth, but I’m just, I’m putting together what I’m hearing

Bev: No, it’s totally. It was, What’s the word I [00:22:00] want? It was t- honest and real, and yes, it’s… There was compassion, there was s- warmth and softness and holding. All of that, even in the midst of, me feeling like sometimes really just, “I don’t know how to do this,” and I’m afraid, and I’m jealous, and I’m scared, and I’m threatened, and I’m all these thing- feeling all these feelings inside that are super uncomfortable and but yeah, it was… Like he said, we, we have never yelled at each other. We have never had what I would call a fight with each other, in our relationship.

We always, there’s always at the center of it, and care, and I deeply care for Michael and who he is as a person. And I want, wanted then to just accept [00:23:00] him as he was and, it’s a lot easier for me today. Though what was huge and this, big well of emotion is now like a, a flicker, and I still get jealous, especially when he’s in NRE or something like that.

But it’s a flicker. It’s a f- of what it was 14 years ago

Alonzo banx: I’m a firm believer that jealousy is okay, jealousy is normal. how you handle your jealousy that becomes a problem. I, I– There’s a whole movement in our world of people, “You’re not supposed to be jealous.” I’m like, “Oh, no. Jealousy is healthy. Jealousy is real.” Handling it correctly is the issue, not the lack of it.

Bev: Yeah, being able to acknowledge that it exists

Uncomfortable, but that’s my feeling and I now have the complete ability to hold that for myself, I it…

Michael: Yeah

Bev: I can speak to it. It’s just, [00:24:00] yeah, I f- I feel that. I, I felt it this week. So

Michael: If you feel like that it shouldn’t be there, then you’re gonna think you’re doing something wrong when it inevitably shows up

Alonzo banx: And it’s always gonna show up.

There’s always a level that you’re gonna get jealous of something

Michael: it’s a feeling. It’s a feeling. It happens

Bev: Yeah. Yeah

Alonzo banx: Okay, so I’m gonna ask you both. Michael, what is your go-to advice for young people who look at you and go, “Damn, you got this down. How do you do it?”

Michael: I wrinkle a little at having it down ’cause it is an ongoing practice for sure. And I think that might be the first thing. Don’t try to get to some place where it, where you have it down, just continue practicing in how you show up. The big things to me is one the bi- the big mistakes that I see get made is, one, when there is some, when there’s some levels, especially if you’re new or the person you’re doing with is new, of course they’re not [00:25:00] gonna know how to do it.

It’s, it goes against the conditioning of how we’re raised, of how, what relationships are supposed to look like. And so there, it’s going to be choppy. It’s gonna be not knowing what to do. And the b- the mistakes I see in that is, one trying to fix it or trying to talk it out and “Let’s work it out so you’re okay before I go out and do that.”

It’s like just know, yeah, it’s gonna, it’s gonna be hard and there’s gonna be feelings. So when Bev was, as she called it, thrashing around, it’s of course she is, so I’m gonna allow that space, come from a place of listening, caring, wanting to show up, and doing that. And then the big thing, like she talked about, is don’t change the behavior because of the upset because then you’re…

Because the upset’s based on an insecurity, which are human. It’s, nothing’s wrong with it, but when you start altering your behavior that’s too hard. I won’t go out with this person. We’ll wait till it’s there,” y- you get [00:26:00] a resentment. It takes away trust. I honestly believe if I would’ve, if I would’ve not been true to myself, even if her insecurity or in her m- in the moment she wanted it more than anything, she would’ve lost respect for me had I done that.

So just s- holding space, being gentle, and there’s not a balance of either you make it okay or you don’t do it. It’s like, no, it’s in between. It’s like, it’s okay, let the feelings be, and then still make the choices that are, you know are true to yourself and stick to that. To me, that’s a balance. And like Bev said it, things that were like super, super hard at first are like something she maybe teases me about for about an hour.

Like it’s just, it’s a whole different realm than it was, and it’s because you walk through it. I see so often people try to talk it out and make it better before they do it, and the w- it’s just walk through it, and then you [00:27:00] get stronger because of it.

Alonzo banx: Bev, some young person looks at you and says, “My partner wants to go down this path, and they’ve never been down this path.” What’s your advice to them?

Bev: T- for them to look at their own path really, what- what’s real for them and what is true to them. For me in this case, like I, I knew it was true to me that m- monogamy was not right, but s- for some people it may be, or, so then it’s if Just listen to what’s real for you, and you gotta peel away your own u- the oni- like if we’re onions, like we have to peel away our own layers too. like I had to uncover my submission even though I’d those fantasies forever, I still put it in a container over here and in a corner. I didn’t feel it was okay. So [00:28:00] y- just uncovering yourself and getting to the place where you’re self-loving and self-accepting. in self-love and self-acceptance, create the space to hold for others. without it, you ca- you can’t really do it for anybody else. And I know that’s cliche, but it’s true

Alonzo banx: I think it was fantastic. You guys are absolutely an amazing couple, Bev, it’s so cool finally getting to talk with you and hear your side of all this. We’ve been hearing Michael’s side there for a while. So we gonna get you on some of our our round tables now on our Sunday nights?

Bev: Would love to. Thank you for having me

Alonzo banx: Yeah, I think you have you’ll give some great insight. Michael, you again. You guys are amazing. Thanks for being on tonight

Michael: Yeah, it was really great. Thanks for having us and asking the questions. It’s really nice. We don’t have people that dig in and talk to both of us about this, so it’s been a c- it’s been a really [00:29:00] fun, remarkable experience, honestly

Alonzo banx: I think you guys, I think a lot of people are gonna enjoy hearing you guys make poly work.

Awesome.

I am Alonzo Banks. This has been the Poly SoCal podcast. Bev, Michael, thank you for being on tonight. Good night, everyone